Western front 1944-1945 Development Thread

Discussion in 'The Operational Art of War' started by Veers, Jul 14, 2006.

  1. Veers

    Veers New Member

    Mar 5, 2006
    Kelowna, BC
    Ok, JL, wasn't sure where to put this, so you can move it to where ever you'd like, but for now I figured I'd put it in the high traffic.

    Events misfiring.

    Now, I don't like being the squeeky wheel, and I like even less asking for help, but damnabit, this one has me perplexed.

    The first screenshot is what happened when my opponent chose to invade Normandy...it told me that...the (debug) which usually stops those news strings, failed to work its magic. He picked another landing sight, asn all was fine.
    [​IMG]

    The second shows what happened when my opponent took Marsielle...apparently the boys a 1,000 kilometres were getting nervous as they blew up the port fascilities in the Hague.
    [​IMG]

    The third shows two things: The first is that the Loreint Port fascilities (that were previously blown up a while ago) are repaired. You'll notice that I took this screener perfectly as it shows Lorient beside the news...of course, it fails to show any supply there. And to think, they had had a supply point there a while ago...after they had been destroyed, but before they had been fixed...go figure...

    But, the straw that broke the cammel's back was the last little question mark. Apparently my major offensive started without informing me, the almighty Fuher....GRrrrrr. Even if one was to select this TO at turn 36 (the earliest you could) it is still supposed to go off 30 turns later, a whopping turn 36...not the current turn 42 that it went off on.

    [​IMG]

    Any insight into these...problems, would be much appreciated. :)
     
  2. JAMiAM

    JAMiAM TOAW III Project Manager

    Debug will stop the news strings from appearing unless P1 is using an "uberdude" command line switch. That's why you see the string.

    As far as the offensive option goes, it sounds like the event is tied to a range, and not a specific turn. I don't feel like sifting through someone else's events in the editor or a dump, right now.

    On the issue of the ports being mixed up, maybe there is a problem with the wrong port hex coordinates being referenced in the event.

    You might want to bring these issues to the attention of the scenario designer, and see if he will address them.
     
  3. Menschenfresser

    Menschenfresser The Amazing Rando

    Oct 9, 2002
    Hell's Kitchen
    I have a dump of this scenario as one time it interested me as the only attempt to do a full West Front scenario.

    I've found the problem

    When you select the TO for the offensive on T36 it triggers a bunch of other events which give the axis supply advantages, recon, etc.

    You are supposed to get a supply boost of 15, 23 turns after the TO trigger.
    It tapers off by 10 after 30 turns and goes down to normal (subtracting 5) after 32 turns.

    However, the offensive event which gives the axis a shock bonus is set for a delay of only 5 turns. It begins to wear off 6 turns after and is gone 7 turns after setting off the TO. I'm guessing this should be changed to something like T29, T30 & T31.

    And for some odd reason the Hague port facility news event is triggered by the same set of events used by the German offensive. What is ever more strange is that the news string says Hague facilities demolished, but a second event gives the allies plus four supply based on the facilities being demolished.

    The long and short of all this being, the event chain is totally screwed.
     
  4. Veers

    Veers New Member

    Mar 5, 2006
    Kelowna, BC
    I see that...
    I wonder if Trey will see this...
    Thanks guys, since I'm doing well, anyways, and it seems too only bugger me up, I think I'll continue the game and hope for the best.
    Any other surprises you noticed, Menschenfresser?

    I was almost positive I didn't have it on, what is the process of turning it on? Then I can figure if there was evena chance that I did have it on.

    I will be giving Trey an email to let him know that Western Front 1944-1945 has some missed events, see if he wants to take a look at it, and direct him here so he can at least see your insight into the problem, Mensch.

    Thanks, guys.

    EDIT: The email he supplied with the scenario briefings for his scenarios in TOAW III no longer seems valid. Does anyone know where he lives? :devious: :laugh:
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  5. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard New Member

    3
    Jun 18, 2006
    Vancouver
    trey.marshall@hotmail.com.
     
  6. Menschenfresser

    Menschenfresser The Amazing Rando

    Oct 9, 2002
    Hell's Kitchen
    Changes in West Front 2.0
    -Shock effects will begin 28 turns after selecting the TO, drop slightly on 29 turns after and go back to normal 30 turns after. (Instead of 5,6,&7 as it was previously).
    -Removed all Italian partisans as I found them totally annoying and in one specific instance, they could reach Milano (I think) on T1 before the Axis could garrison it resulting in a drop in replacements.
    -In order to remove the partisans I had to recombine some Allied units on the Italian front.

    Basically I think the biggest flaw in this scenario is the German OOB (I can't recall what I thought of the Allied). I'm not saying it's incorrect. What I find odd is how all HQs are in one formation instead of coupled with their respective combat units.

    However, since this is pretty much the only full western front scenario, I figured it should be made playable. This zip contains the modified scenario for COW, not TOAW3. Someone else will have to do the converting.
     
  7. Menschenfresser

    Menschenfresser The Amazing Rando

    Oct 9, 2002
    Hell's Kitchen
    One other oops not corrected in 2.0:

    -I'm not sure about all Allied invasion beach TOs, but I do recall that if you choose the Normandy beach, 1 or 2 of the other TOs are not removed. I think it's the option allowing invasion east of the Cherbourg pennisula.
     
  8. Veers

    Veers New Member

    Mar 5, 2006
    Kelowna, BC
    Most of the German HQs are actually combined with their combat units. It would appear that the boatload of 'extra' HQs were the replacement HQs that developed over the course of the end of the war.

    As the the TOs not going away, this is correct, I think that when you select one TO it only elimintates on other TO. When you select Normandy, you can still invade Brittany and Dieppe, when you invade Calais, you can still invade Brittany and Normandy...if I remember correctly.

    As to the Partisans, yes, they are truly annoying, and they could get to Milano, with luck they could even get into southern Germany and take out those replacement producing cities. But there were Italian Partisans in Italy, eh? But were they as potent as the ones in this scenario?

    To convert the scenario you simply open it up in the TOAW III Editor and save it fromt here, eh? If so I'll convert it and post it.

    EDIT: Doh, almost forgot! Thanks, mate!:laugh:

    EDIT: Ralph/Jam, did the errors of loading a CoW scenario and then saving it from TOAW III get fixed with the latest patch?

    EDIT: Mensch, why did you haev to recombine the two IND Divisions ov V Corps? I divided them again, but if they're going to mess things up being divided, I'm going to put them back together. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  9. Menschenfresser

    Menschenfresser The Amazing Rando

    Oct 9, 2002
    Hell's Kitchen
    If units are divided on the map, you can't make any OOB changes in the editor. In order to get rid of the Italian partisans I had to recombine those two divisions.

    It's not that there weren't Italian partisans, but in a scenario of this scale, I don't think having on map units do the situation justice. Perhaps someone with more evil ed creativity than myself could come up with an alternative. Not sure. Partisans are one of the more difficult things to model in TOAW. I think Stauffenberg's GiO does a good job with the Balkan partisans, but they too are a pain in the arse.

    If I were to add them back in, a preliminary idea would be to have non-reconstituting partisans. In other words, a few units would appear for the germans to tango with. And then so many turns later more would appear, perhaps based on a turn range so you don't know exactly when they're arriving.
     
  10. Veers

    Veers New Member

    Mar 5, 2006
    Kelowna, BC
    That, actually, sounds like a very good idea, as well as not placing a Partisan so close to Milano.

    I will also try to sift through the events to see why the Lorient events are fudged. And maybe see if any other ports are similarly effected. But right now I have to finish my latest turn of WF 1944-1945!! Tallyho!
     
  11. JAMiAM

    JAMiAM TOAW III Project Manager

    Veers, to enable the "uberdude" command line switch, simply right-click on the desktop shortcut, choose Properties, then the Shortcut tab. In the Target line, add to the end of the string a space, and the following string
    "uberdude"

    When P1 is using the uberdude switch the new items will show the debug items. This can give more info to both sides, since it was intended primarily for debugging and testing scenarios. In some cases this may reduce the "Fog of War" but the effect is equally shared by both players so it is generally not too much an issue. If you find that you have too much information with respect to events, then you can always ask your opponent to turn it off for the games that you are playing with him. He can always set up a second desktop shortcut to play the game "vanilla".

    Since I do a lot of testing of scenarios and such, I usually have the uberdude line enabled.
     
  12. Veers

    Veers New Member

    Mar 5, 2006
    Kelowna, BC
    I see. The only reason i was confused by it is because each invasion beach selected has the (debug) code in the news string. My opponent didn't think he had the uberdude switch on, and the next turn, when he selected an alternate beach it did not show the (debug) news string...but he must have accidentally had it on, eh? P2 having the uberdude switch on doesn't do anything, eh?
     
  13. Veers

    Veers New Member

    Mar 5, 2006
    Kelowna, BC
    Speaking of improvements to Western Front 1944-1945

    Mensch,

    Do you have any ideas on how to simulate a more drastic supply drain on the Allies. In the game the Allies can really just plow through (as I have, just look at my AAR) without worrying about supply, but in history, the Allies really faced a major supply problem when they hit the Belgian border.

    Perhaps when the Allies hit the Belgian border, the Allies could experience a far greater supply loss, then with the capture and fixing of Antwerp a far greater supply gain?

    In the scenario briefing it says that the Allied supplies drop "to around 5%" three times. Mid-July, capture of Paris, and hitting the German border...I think that it doesn't drop to 5%, but by 5% how it is currently set up.

    Now, the current supply system appears to be set up assuming a landing in Brittany/Normandy, as to increase one's supply, one must capture several ports west of Calais and Dieppe. Which means that some one invading Calais and runing for Germany is penalized with the capture of Paris and July, and hitting the German Border. At the same time, this player's supply line is shorter than in history, and he would have to advance backwards (west) to capture many important ports. Any thoughts on this, how it could be made more dynamic to more fully accomidate landing at other beaches?
     
  14. Telumar

    Telumar New Member

    Jun 9, 2004
    niflheim
    Maybe with a seperate chain of events for each possible invasion area. If the allies land in brittany their supply would decrease before the belgian border, if they decide to land at Calais, it would drop when they reach the rhine in germany, just examples, something like that.
     
  15. Menschenfresser

    Menschenfresser The Amazing Rando

    Oct 9, 2002
    Hell's Kitchen
    From looking at the West Front scen dump earlier, I did notice a supply drop trigger when the allies neared certain location(s) near the west wall, or there abouts. It would take some doing, but you could have a completely different set of supply drop events for each invasion TO. Each TO could enable a different location w/range which when captured (or neared) by the allies would set off a "supply lines stretched" event. In other words, an invasion at Calais could get father east than an invasion at Normandy without triggering a supply drop. I think this is possible, but I'm not sure. Someone with more event engine experience would have to chime in.

    However, this solution is sort of an "all things being equal" approach. That mostly likely isn't the case. Personally, I'd like to do away with the other invasion locations and just freeze all of the German assets in France & Germany, which would be released along historical lines after the Allied invasion.
     
  16. Menschenfresser

    Menschenfresser The Amazing Rando

    Oct 9, 2002
    Hell's Kitchen
  17. Telumar

    Telumar New Member

    Jun 9, 2004
    niflheim
    :)


    Though the allies used the Mulberries they needed a real harbour as soon as possible, Cherbourg. For the landings in Brittany this would be Brest and in the Calais region, well, Calais. One would have to compare the port capabilities (in tonnage possible to be unloaded and transported, anchoring places etc.) to further detail the 'supply drop range'. For sure, these three harbours have not the same size.
    What other harbours have been used by the allies before the capture and opening of Antwerp harbour?

    Mensch's proposal with Normandy as the only invasion site is good and clean, but it would take away the "great gamble".

    Telumar - Redball express.
     
  18. Veers

    Veers New Member

    Mar 5, 2006
    Kelowna, BC
    the problem with freezing the invasion beach at Normandy is that it takes away the true joy of the scenario, beaing able to do things your way, to try out the different what if possibilities. persoanlly, one of the things I most like about the scenario is the freedom to try different things.
     
  19. Veers

    Veers New Member

    Mar 5, 2006
    Kelowna, BC
    Exactly.And very good points.
     
  20. Menschenfresser

    Menschenfresser The Amazing Rando

    Oct 9, 2002
    Hell's Kitchen
    While true, it also prevents what has happened in your AAR: the German player overloading the invasion beaches with everything in Germany and France. I feared that in this scenario, the Germans could repell most Allied invasions by parking their tanks on the beaches. Perhaps some sort of compromise is in order where some of the heavier (namely panzer) reserves are frozen, but much of the infantry isn't. This should allow German players to reinforce certain invasion areas, but keep it from being a slaughter. But in keeping with idea of total freedom, the frozen reserves would be all released on the same turn the allies invade giving them the opportunity to rush forward.
     

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