Weapons breakdown

[witchbottles]

Captain Bacchus! Why spend your free time with him? Way, way back in the day, Madame Sake was much better company.

wait, aren't they paramours????

 

[witchbottles]

I would grant that ASL has done a wonderful job in creating a rule for every single occurrence one has ever seen in a Hollywood war film from the 1940 wartime releases to today's films. The rules do an exceptional job in covering all bases of Hollywood war movies...

 

[Actionjick]

Captain Bacchus! Why spend your free time with him? Way, way back in the day, Madame Sake was much better company.

I've met her on a few occasions. It might be time to renew her acquaintance.

 

[Futbol]

dont forget dud rounds! ex, critical hit with Panzerschrek resulted in a dud one time for me it happens too

 

[Futbol]

speaking of breakdowns Forgotten War covers the ineffectiveness of the early Korean war bazookas simulating aged and obsolete ammunition so breakdowns can be a factor in as ASL scenario

 

[Carln0130]

In the original post, the OP mentioned time scale. This is one of the most fluid aspects in the game. A scenario rarely reflects 2 minutes per turn. Most scenarios run from 40 minutes to several hours. You can think of the turns as a roughly even division of the time frame of the battles duration. It's almost never 2 minutes per turn though.

 

[Actionjick]

In the original post, the OP mentioned time scale. This is one of the most fluid aspects in the game. A scenario rarely reflects 2 minutes per turn. Most scenarios run from 40 minutes to several hours. You can think of the turns as a roughly even division of the time frame of the battles duration. It's almost never 2 minutes per turn though.

Yes the time scale has to be one of those game abstractions it's best to ignore. I feel the same way about the hex being forty meters. Just play and enjoy the abstractions.

 

[Actionjick]

In the original post, the OP mentioned time scale. This is one of the most fluid aspects in the game. A scenario rarely reflects 2 minutes per turn. Most scenarios run from 40 minutes to several hours. You can think of the turns as a roughly even division of the time frame of the battles duration. It's almost never 2 minutes per turn though.

I would comment on trying two minute turns but that would just open an old can of worms.

 

[witchbottles]

In the original post, the OP mentioned time scale. This is one of the most fluid aspects in the game. A scenario rarely reflects 2 minutes per turn. Most scenarios run from 40 minutes to several hours. You can think of the turns as a roughly even division of the time frame of the battles duration. It's almost never 2 minutes per turn though.

take the old MG 34 - test fired in 2013 with a certified original (a total waste of a 3500 dollar MG, but they did it), at Gunsite Academy - on full auto, continuous belt-fed fire, until something made it stop.

The MG 34 action ran full auto on the range for 4 minutes and 34 seconds of nonstop full auto fire, long past the barrel melt down- until the action itself began to glow white hot. Now, by the time the barrel was melting to the ground in white hot drips of steel, the bullets were flying all over the place in off angles as they left the molten steel furnace that was misshaping them.

But the bullets continued to leave the chamber in a continuous stream for some 4 and a half minutes.

So if you take the ASL equivalent, which is the German MMG - with a ROF of 2 and a B12. You would expect under similar circumstances in a 2 minute per turn window, to see the MMG malfunction within 2 and half game turns, or within 5 player turns, to a point where it is unrepairable in the field. you would expect the same MMG to average a 1.33 shots per fire phase it is eligible to shoot in during that period. So it is on the average, getting off in Game turn 1 a PFPh and a DFF/DFPh round of shooting, for 4 total phases it can shoot + the last half turn for an addition phase, making a total of 5 phases of shooting with said MMG.

that makes an average of 6.65 shots taken before a malfunction would occur in the actual MG on continuous fire.

now they fed that actual MG 34 some 3300 rounds of ammunition - so that equates to 495 +/- rounds per shot before it malfunctioned.

Now how many machine gunners have you ever spoken with or read about, who were trained to fire sustained bursts of 500 or so rounds in each burst?

that's right, none. Perhaps a total reckless new guy who finds it but has no idea to do anything but pull a trigger might fire off an entire belt, but that is in the MG 34 MMg case, a 135 round belt before a reload is required (unless you were playing around like the Gunsite Academy boys were and made a 5000 round linked belt for the test fire).

in that 135 round belt being fire all at once, you might expect, from all the above, an average possibility of the barrel melting some 15% (+/-) of the time during a sustained fire of the 135 round complete linked belt, all other things remaining equal.

In 6.65 shots in ASL from a B12 weapon, your possibility of a malfunction is expected to be after all shots are attempted, some 18.6% of the time - a malfunction DR of 12 will occur once in that string of 6.65 DRs of 2D6.

I don't know, but it seems that ASL to me, if one is factoring in only the statistical probability of a catastrophic breakdown requiring extensive time to repair and no other variables whatsoever - the MG SW B12 counters in ASL seem pretty dead on for weapons breakdown probability - 15% actual vs 18.6% in the game with zero other variables considered.

As there are ALWAYS other variables - and the 18.6% ASL probability will not change much (perhaps a variable on type of dice tower used, number of tumbler baffles in the tower, the resistance of the felt lining in the catch tray of the tower, number of ridges inside the dice cup if using that, balance points of the colored die in each DR, precision of fabrication of the dice and of the tower or dice glass, etc. in short minimal) whereas the actual MG 34 under field conditions will face variables such as manufacture quality of the ammunition used, cleanliness of the weapon in between each belt fired, spacing of the bursts fired, number of rounds in each burst fired, and ambient outside temperature during the engagement - that 18.6%game probability seems pretty dead on accurate overall - at least for the MG 34 German MMG with a B12 and a ROF of 2, IF one takes the 2 minute per game turn as"close". ( Yes I know, close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and first dates.)

 

[Yuri0352]

take the old MG 34 - test fired in 2013 with a certified original (a total waste of a 3500 dollar MG, but they did it), at Gunsite Academy - on full auto, continuous belt-fed fire, until something made it stop.

The MG 34 action ran full auto on the range for 4 minutes and 34 seconds of nonstop full auto fire, long past the barrel melt down- until the action itself began to glow white hot. Now, by the time the barrel was melting to the ground in white hot drips of steel, the bullets were flying all over the place in off angles as they left the molten steel furnace that was misshaping them.

Wow!
A sad example of the reckless, unnecessary destruction of a historical artifact to prove a theory. We should be glad that the buffoons at Gunsite aren't curating the Tank Museum at Bovington. Imagine this sort of misguided logic resulting in hauling Tiger 131 out to the tank range just to prove that it's armor won't stand up to multiple impacts from the Challenger 2's DU rounds.

 

[Actionjick]

Wow!
A sad example of the reckless, unnecessary destruction of a historical artifact to prove a theory. We should be glad that the buffoons at Gunsite aren't curating the Tank Museum at Bovington. Imagine this sort of misguided logic resulting in hauling Tiger 131 out to the tank range just to prove that it's armor won't stand up to multiple impacts from the Challenger 2's DU rounds.

Scientific Progress Goes ' Boink ', or marches on.

 

[STAVKA]

The Russian LMG B11, was a very reliable slowshooting machinegun, but to produce and supply an army of millions with low-tech peasants in a mega conflict. Do in an abstract manner, the B11 number reasonable.

 

[Carln0130]

Scientific Progress Goes ' Boink ', or marches on.

"Boink" you say?

 

[Old Noob]

The Russian LMG {otherwise known as the DP 1928} was a simple enough weapon. But it had two problems, the first being the recoil spring was located under
the gun barrel [prolonged firing would cause the spring to lose it's temper(ing) and fail to work properly] and the second being that the ammunition was in a
flat pan magazine [if someone did not know how to load the magazine properly, a feed malfunction would occur].

 

[Actionjick]

take the old MG 34 - test fired in 2013 with a certified original (a total waste of a 3500 dollar MG, but they did it), at Gunsite Academy - on full auto, continuous belt-fed fire, until something made it stop.

The MG 34 action ran full auto on the range for 4 minutes and 34 seconds of nonstop full auto fire, long past the barrel melt down- until the action itself began to glow white hot. Now, by the time the barrel was melting to the ground in white hot drips of steel, the bullets were flying all over the place in off angles as they left the molten steel furnace that was misshaping them.

But the bullets continued to leave the chamber in a continuous stream for some 4 and a half minutes.

So if you take the ASL equivalent, which is the German MMG - with a ROF of 2 and a B12. You would expect under similar circumstances in a 2 minute per turn window, to see the MMG malfunction within 2 and half game turns, or within 5 player turns, to a point where it is unrepairable in the field. you would expect the same MMG to average a 1.33 shots per fire phase it is eligible to shoot in during that period. So it is on the average, getting off in Game turn 1 a PFPh and a DFF/DFPh round of shooting, for 4 total phases it can shoot + the last half turn for an addition phase, making a total of 5 phases of shooting with said MMG.

that makes an average of 6.65 shots taken before a malfunction would occur in the actual MG on continuous fire.

now they fed that actual MG 34 some 3300 rounds of ammunition - so that equates to 495 +/- rounds per shot before it malfunctioned.

Now how many machine gunners have you ever spoken with or read about, who were trained to fire sustained bursts of 500 or so rounds in each burst?

that's right, none. Perhaps a total reckless new guy who finds it but has no idea to do anything but pull a trigger might fire off an entire belt, but that is in the MG 34 MMg case, a 135 round belt before a reload is required (unless you were playing around like the Gunsite Academy boys were and made a 5000 round linked belt for the test fire).

in that 135 round belt being fire all at once, you might expect, from all the above, an average possibility of the barrel melting some 15% (+/-) of the time during a sustained fire of the 135 round complete linked belt, all other things remaining equal.

In 6.65 shots in ASL from a B12 weapon, your possibility of a malfunction is expected to be after all shots are attempted, some 18.6% of the time - a malfunction DR of 12 will occur once in that string of 6.65 DRs of 2D6.

I don't know, but it seems that ASL to me, if one is factoring in only the statistical probability of a catastrophic breakdown requiring extensive time to repair and no other variables whatsoever - the MG SW B12 counters in ASL seem pretty dead on for weapons breakdown probability - 15% actual vs 18.6% in the game with zero other variables considered.

As there are ALWAYS other variables - and the 18.6% ASL probability will not change much (perhaps a variable on type of dice tower used, number of tumbler baffles in the tower, the resistance of the felt lining in the catch tray of the tower, number of ridges inside the dice cup if using that, balance points of the colored die in each DR, precision of fabrication of the dice and of the tower or dice glass, etc. in short minimal) whereas the actual MG 34 under field conditions will face variables such as manufacture quality of the ammunition used, cleanliness of the weapon in between each belt fired, spacing of the bursts fired, number of rounds in each burst fired, and ambient outside temperature during the engagement - that 18.6%game probability seems pretty dead on accurate overall - at least for the MG 34 German MMG with a B12 and a ROF of 2, IF one takes the 2 minute per game turn as"close". ( Yes I know, close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and first dates.)

This excellent post reminded me of a Vickers machine gun that was fired for seven days. The story is in the book The Grand Old Lady of No Mans Land: The Vickers Machinegun, page 188. The author is Dolf L
Goldsmith. This is all from The Google so who knows it's accuracy.

It was said the Viclkers used a pint of water every 600 rounds. A gallon every 4800 rounds. Any infantry types have input or are water cooled machine guns a thing of the past?

 

[Actionjick]

This excellent post reminded me of a Vickers machine gun that was fired for seven days. The story is in the book The Grand Old Lady of No Mans Land, page 188. The author is Dolf L
Goldsmith. This is all from The Google so who knows it's accuracy.

It was said the Viclkers used a pint of water every 600 rounds. A gallon every 4800 rounds. Any infantry types have input or are water cooled machine guns a thing of the past?

Well you can buy the book for $179. Has anyone read it?

 

[witchbottles]

Well you can buy the book for $179. Has anyone read it?

reminds me of the nearly 2 year effort I spent in finding a copy of a very limited print run on a book in Dutch, for research on an HASL project - the book had been printed in 1956 in Utrecht. Apparently, only 200 copies were ever produced. It described in detail the memoirs of a family on Walcheren during the invasion and 4 day battle for the island in 1944.

As it was ASL related, I felt it worth my time then to really work diligently to source the book. I finally did. A single copy in an old bookstore in the Netherlands. A few emails later on, and a paypal. I had a colleague in Utrecht off to obtain that copy for me and post it to me.

My price? $392.79 USD in 2015 dollars, total out of pocket for book, transportation and a lunch for my colleague, and post fees.
It is without a doubt, the most I have ever paid for a single print copy of a book, and just under the most I have ever paid for a single item related to ASL.

Here is a bit I found on the Vickers Mk I, 1912 model:

"...the competitive test of automatic machine guns at Springfield Armory on September 15, 1913. Seven makes of automatic machine guns were considered and tried out. The Lewis gun during the endurance test had 206 jams and malfunctions, 35 broken parts, 15 parts not broken but requiring replacement as against respectively 23, 0, 0, for the Vickers gun and 59, 7, 0 for the Automatic Machine Rifle .30, Model of 1909, Benét–Mercié. The Board is of the opinion that, with the exception of the Vickers gun, none of the other guns submitted showed sufficiently marked superiority for the military service..."

(http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/u-s-colt-vickers-model-of-1915/)


Per its original specifications from Vickers:

Rate of fire (rounds per minute) 550.

Capacity of Belt 250.


for me, it is amazing always to consider the U.S. Ordnance Corps testing procedures on any weapon system. They literally do just that thing - fire a weapon purposefully in order to cause malfunctions, then repair it, then do it again, and again, until the sample weapons being tested are practically destroyed.

8 of the most valuable semiautomatic pistols in the world were first tested there - the other 2 from the sample lot of 10 were destroyed in that testing. They are the Luger P-08s in .45 ACP. 7 are known whereabouts, one is missing, and two were destroyed by the rigors of the testing.


Given the penchant for a P-08 to load and discharge a round from the magazine during disassembly of the action for cleaning - it is not surprising theUS Army went with the M1911 Colt. A long time rule of thumb for Luger owners is "count rounds in, count them out". Like "Garand thumb", it is worthwhile to learn if you ever try owning one.



Which brings us to another ASL-related point... perhaps that DR 6,6 on an IFP only IFT shot from an American 6-6-6 you take in ASL represents the guy with the enemy in sight then becoming "all thumbs" while loading an en bloc clip into his Garand..... the resulting pause for pain from the Garand bite letting the enemy find time to duck for cover??

 

[Actionjick]

reminds me of the nearly 2 year effort I spent in finding a copy of a very limited print run on a book in Dutch, for research on an HASL project - the book had been printed in 1956 in Utrecht. Apparently, only 200 copies were ever produced. It described in detail the memoirs of a family on Walcheren during the invasion and 4 day battle for the island in 1944.

As it was ASL related, I felt it worth my time then to really work diligently to source the book. I finally did. A single copy in an old bookstore in the Netherlands. A few emails later on, and a paypal. I had a colleague in Utrecht off to obtain that copy for me and post it to me.

My price? $392.79 USD in 2015 dollars, total out of pocket for book, transportation and a lunch for my colleague, and post fees.
It is without a doubt, the most I have ever paid for a single print copy of a book, and just under the most I have ever paid for a single item related to ASL.

Here is a bit I found on the Vickers Mk I, 1912 model:

"...the competitive test of automatic machine guns at Springfield Armory on September 15, 1913. Seven makes of automatic machine guns were considered and tried out. The Lewis gun during the endurance test had 206 jams and malfunctions, 35 broken parts, 15 parts not broken but requiring replacement as against respectively 23, 0, 0, for the Vickers gun and 59, 7, 0 for the Automatic Machine Rifle .30, Model of 1909, Benét–Mercié. The Board is of the opinion that, with the exception of the Vickers gun, none of the other guns submitted showed sufficiently marked superiority for the military service..."

(http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/u-s-colt-vickers-model-of-1915/)


Per its original specifications from Vickers:

Rate of fire (rounds per minute) 550.

Capacity of Belt 250.


for me, it is amazing always to consider the U.S. Ordnance Corps testing procedures on any weapon system. They literally do just that thing - fire a weapon purposefully in order to cause malfunctions, then repair it, then do it again, and again, until the sample weapons being tested are practically destroyed.

8 of the most valuable semiautomatic pistols in the world were first tested there - the other 2 from the sample lot of 10 were destroyed in that testing. They are the Luger P-08s in .45 ACP. 7 are known whereabouts, one is missing, and two were destroyed by the rigors of the testing.


Given the penchant for a P-08 to load and discharge a round from the magazine during disassembly of the action for cleaning - it is not surprising theUS Army went with the M1911 Colt. A long time rule of thumb for Luger owners is "count rounds in, count them out". Like "Garand thumb", it is worthwhile to learn if you ever try owning one.



Which brings us to another ASL-related point... perhaps that DR 6,6 on an IFP only IFT shot from an American 6-6-6 you take in ASL represents the guy with the enemy in sight then becoming "all thumbs" while loading an en bloc clip into his Garand..... the resulting pause for pain from the Garand bite letting the enemy find time to duck for cover??

Nice post! Thanks!

Being an old, cheap-ass jick I have never spent anywhere near that much for a book. That's what libraries are for.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Nice post! Thanks!

Being an old, cheap-ass jick I have never spent anywhere near that much for a book. That's what libraries are for.

I have had my family offer me a biblical hebrew lexicon (4 vols) for $1000, for my 40th birthday.
But that is just my personal sickness - I had had another one offered for my 30th birthday ($600 value).
They refused to offer me another one for my 50th...

 

[Actionjick]

I have had my family offer me a biblical hebrew lexicon (4 vols) for $1000, for my 40th birthday.
But that is just my personal sickness - I had had another one offered for my 30th birthday ($600 value).
They refused to offer me another one for my 50th...

When you hit sixty what happens?