WCW 1-10 Scenario Pack

[Houlie]

Hi folks,

Can anyone tell me if original WCW packs are available for purchase from anywhere/anyone? Is there someone from the original team that put this pack together that would consider reprinting it? The scenarios look well-balanced, at least through ROAR. Also Tom Repetti did a play-by-play for "Eye of the Tiger" -- it sounds like a blast. Furthermore, it seems like there is good demand for some of these old scenario packs.

From a capitalist perspective, whoever "owns" the pack - I guess the WCW club and their designers - those folks (or remnants) could profit by obtaining approval from the original designers and reprinting the packs as is (since the scenarios don't need any work). Not to mention the favor they would do for the hobby in general. I am not rocket scientist, but this doesn't seem too hard.

As a rabid capitalist myself, I wish to respect the legal ownership of those who labored to create these fine scenarios and pay them for their efforts. So, PUH-LEEZE, no flame wars on scenarios reverting to freeware after some self-justified statute of limitations. Please start a separate post if you feel the need to address that issue.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Pitman]

The pack is no longer available. It hardly ever comes up on E-bay, either. Most people who have a copy have exactly that--copies.

The scenarios are almost all good and they are well-balanced.

Those that haven't already been reprinted (several have) are unlikely to be, given the hostility between the Chicago wargamers and MMP. Why there is bad blood is a long story, but includes changes to reprinted scenarios made by MMP without the consent of WCW, nasty reviews of MMP products by WCW in its newsletter, copyright issues surrounding the artwork in WCW, and more.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Actually, only two WCW scenarios were reprinted, Abandon ship and will to fight.


Scott

 

[ASLgrognard]

A semi-related question

What happened to the club, I've sent notes in their direction, but never get a response. I see references to them on the web, but ASL figures nowhere in their game lineup.

 

[CV]

WCW

Anybody got any idea on what happened, or what the status is of the WCW Sugar Loaf Hill HASL that was mentioned in VFTT#19?

 

[David Goldman]

I guess that I can speak as well as anyone as to the status of the WCW and the WCW color scenarios.

First as to the club, sadly it is defunct. Louie Tokarz labored mightly for years as the sole driving force of the club. When Louie stopped pushing the club, stopped publishing its newsletter and especially stopped competing in ASL, the club just ground to a halt.

I pretty much have kept the most public part of the WCW going along with help from Rob Banozic, Scott Drane, Mike Naven, Joe Celebuski and a few others we keep the ASL OPEN going and thankfully growing. The one day WCW Exclusive (misnamed because anyone can enter) still is held (last time run by Joe Celebuski).

There's an ASL day at my house once a month and Scott Drane hosts game nights regularly on selected Fridays but that is not an ASL event. Events otherwise are confined to informal get togethers. There is certainly a smaller core of Chicago area ASLers than 10 years ago, but I suspect that is true of ASL generally.

That is what the ASL scene in the Chicago area consists of these days.

As to the scenarios, I had some hopes that they could be reprinted. Louie I suspect has the original artwork but that is only a guess if it even still exists. Louie's not likely to tell me so ask him at your own peril.

I also suspect that the ownership of the rights to the scenarios is probably obscure at best. At the risk of offending the ultimate copyright holder if one even exists (First I would need a definitive answer as to what was the right granted for the original publication. Was it for a limited number or purpose or time or what?) I suspect that no one knows what to do if the scenarios are now color photocopied. In fact I doubt that Hasbro, MMP, Louie or anyone else can come forward with the documentation to settle the question or enforce the rights of the copyright holder if there is even one.

So, if you can get someone to make you copies and don't sell them I strongly suspect that no one will bother you.

David Goldman

 

[Houlie]

Thanks for the background, David. Though, I would still pay for the reprinted originals in a heartbeat should they ever be re-released.

Kind regards to all who replied.

 

[byouse]

given the hostility between the Chicago wargamers and MMP. Why there is bad blood is a long story, but includes changes to reprinted scenarios made by MMP without the consent of WCW, nasty reviews of MMP products by WCW in its newsletter, copyright issues surrounding the artwork in WCW, and more.

Certainly no hostility on our end, we'd love to reprint the package but the asking price was impossible to meet.

As to "nasty reviews" the WCW is (was?) free to write whatever they wish. A bad review hardly gets us down, as we pretty much face negative reaction from -someone- in public forums almost every single day.

Certainly, however, the last four or five newsletters we received had something negative to say about MMP, but that's america - free speech and all that. We just kind of chuckle about the newsletters at this point since receiving them must mean we've done something wrong. 8)

As to changes, the only one I recall is removing the LMGs from the Pole OB in WtfE when we discovered during DB research that the Poles had no LMG.

There certainly may be more which i'm just not remembering, it has been a long time.

Outside of the asking price issue, the main reason (I personally believe) that there may be some hostility from the Chicago end is that we treated them like any other playtest group and didn't always (ever?) take what they said as gospel. That certainly has rubbed people the wrong way in the past, not just the WCW guys. Its the classic problem. 8 people say one thing, 2 people say another, and you don't listen to those two and they get upset. Human nature, really.

Were they right? Absolutely, in some instances. And no in others. Playtesting isn't a science, sometimes you just have to go with what the numbers tell you. In our eyes that was what we were being paid to do - make that decision. And since our names were on the products, we felt that our decision was the final word.

And that rubs some people the wrong way.

Brian

 

[Gunner Scott]

Hi-

Brian, if you want reprint Eye of the tiger and stand and die, go for it, send me the release forms if need be.


Scott

 

[byouse]

Did you design them, Scott?

What was your original agreement (ie., do you still hold he rights to the scenarios?)

Brian

 

[Gunner Scott]

Hi-

yup, I designed them, so they are mine, as I said send me the release form and I'll sign them over bto you.


Scott

 

[Pitman]

They are both good scenarios that deserve to be reprinted. But you might want to check with WCW to make sure there are no conflicting views about who holds the rights.

 

[Gunner Scott]

I hate to break the news to you Pitchavage, but there is no more WCW, its kaput. So if I want to give those scenarios to MMP I can, I did the research, the design and so on. I dont mean to be harsh, but as Dr. Bones would say, "He's dead Jim"


Scott

 

[SamB]

Scott said:

I hate to break the news to you Pitchavage, but there is no more WCW, its kaput. So if I want to give those scenarios to MMP I can, I did the research, the design and so on. I dont mean to be harsh, but as Dr. Bones would say, "He's dead Jim"

Scott, the problem is that if when you sent the scenarios to the folks at WCW you may have transferred the rights to the scenario to them (something that is not uncommon) then you no longer own them. The fact that they are out of business is not relevant.

Brian is just trying to make sure he's following the same rules that Hasbro and MMP as the third party folks to follow.

Sam

 

[Doughboy]

Sam is correct, even simple verbal agreements can can real ugly once legal disputes comes into play. Unless you are one of the original WCW member, the legal rights can preside for at least a couple of decades, much like the sticky copyright issues of books and media. Perhaps it might be practical to get the sign off from the former WCW members?

John

 

[Houlie]

With Scott being the acknowledged creator/designer and if he never officially, legally or verbally signed anything over to WCW it would seem to me to be a non-issue. With WCW long defunct, and unlikely that it ever was any sort of legal entity, the burden of proof is on a prospective "plaintiff". Honestly, if some person from somewhere wanted to bother to sue Scott -- the designer/creator of his own *ASL scenario* -- my response is "get a hobby". It's not like Scott is trying to give away some one else's material.

Hopefully, on this Memorial Day, we can put things like this in perspective to really understand that this really about as unimportant an issue in the grand scheme of things as there ever could be.

Brian -- this sounds like great Out of the Attic material.

Best regards.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Hi-

Hell, I dont want any money, I just want to see people enjoy these scenarios again, Plus I am confident that MMP would not change anything other then clearifying VC's, wording and so on. IE updating these scenarios to 2nd edition.
Hopefully MMP will get back to me soon on weather they want my two designs or not.


Scott

With Scott being the acknowledged creator/designer and if he never officially, legally or verbally signed anything over to WCW it would seem to me to be a non-issue. With WCW long defunct, and unlikely that it ever was any sort of legal entity, the burden of proof is on a prospective "plaintiff". Honestly, if some person from somewhere wanted to bother to sue Scott -- the designer/creator of his own *ASL scenario* -- my response is "get a hobby". It's not like Scott is trying to give away some one else's material.

Hopefully, on this Memorial Day, we can put things like this in perspective to really understand that this really about as unimportant an issue in the grand scheme of things as there ever could be.

Brian -- this sounds like great Out of the Attic material.

Best regards.

 

[Fred Ingram]

if some person from somewhere wanted to bother to sue Scott -- the designer/creator of his own *ASL scenario* -- my response is "get a hobby". It's not like Scott is trying to give away some one else's material.

Have you ever heard of the plaigairism suit against John Fogarty (Credence Clearwater Revival) for supposedly self-plaigerising his own songs - the ones he lost the rights too years earlier?

The law is a mysterious entity.

 

[Doughboy]

"self plagarism," what a concept. when I did my undergrad a decade ago this was not an issue, and many students resubmited a lot of their work to save time. Now that I'm finishing my MBA, self plagarism is indeed a major issue and taken seriously much like plagarism. :shock:

Yes, there is not likely an issue with publishing this anyway as the value of product is almost nil. But, you never know what can emerge from the woodwork. :roll:

I say, let's publish these items anyway, and keep ASL alive
cheers!

John

Captain Stransky: I said, where is your platoon Sgt Steiner!
Steiner: you are my platoon, Captain Stransky

 

[byouse]

Scott,

We'll check with our attorney, if they think it's a non-issue we'll definitely use them in our next Out of the Attic. They were wonderful scenarios.

Brian