Was World War 2 really decided in just 5 minutes?

Michael Dorosh

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Never underestimate the foolishness of a racist.
Well said. American and British assessments of the Japanese were also, unfortunately, equally comical. Reports of poor night vision because of slanted eyes comes to mind on the one hand, and on the other reports that they received extensive 'jungle training' and were near supermen on the other. One of the elements of "Easy Company's" history (Co. E, 506 PIR) that is not well known because it wasn't in the movie, was a mutli-day, long-distance forced march in the United States, specifically to disprove the notion that the Japanese soldier had some other-worldly level of endurance.
 

Bob Walters

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Well said. American and British assessments of the Japanese were also, unfortunately, equally comical. Reports of poor night vision because of slanted eyes comes to mind on the one hand, and on the other reports that they received extensive 'jungle training' and were near supermen on the other. One of the elements of "Easy Company's" history (Co. E, 506 PIR) that is not well known because it wasn't in the movie, was a mutli-day, long-distance forced march in the United States, specifically to disprove the notion that the Japanese soldier had some other-worldly level of endurance.
I thought about that just after I posted it. The Fall of Singapore came as quite a shock to the British as Pearl Harbor did to us.
 

Barking Monkey

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Secondly they had an insufficient aircrew training regime. Their pre-war scheme produced excellent pilots, but their policy washed out many who, though not excellent, would likely have made pretty good pilots .
I'm a bit curious about this, if folks don't mind me going off topic by more than a bit. The Japanese pilot training establishment is well outside my area of knowledge so I'm interested to know - did they have the resources to train more pilots than they did once the war got into full swing? The Germans certainly didn't, there just wasn't enough fuel available so pilot training got low priority, which led to greater losses, which became a problem feeding on itself. I guess I'd assumed the Japanese were in the same boat once the stresses of war on resource allocation began. If they only had the fuel, aircraft, instructors etc. to train a few then might not washing-out all but the best make sense?
 

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Both Germany and Japan were facing (potential) oil shortages even before the war, Japan especially. The limited output of the Japanese training was a long standing tradition.

What little I have read about the Japanese air training program was that the issue was less material than cultural. Pilots as solo warriors were regarded as the epitome of the Samurai tradition, infantry and sailors less so, so absolute perfection was demanded. Think of it as a form of institutional OCD. Allied to that, the Japanese realised they were at a distinct material advantage, so tried to compensate with very, very high quality. Another example of this was the building of the Yamato class BBs. They hoped by having a smaller number of, but more powerful ships, they could beat a more numerous opponent in their desired "Decisive Battle" like a Tushima rerun.

Like with their industry they had great difficulty in adjusting to the exigencies of mass industrial war and whatever steps they took to expand their training regime was too little and too late. A bit like a watchmaker being asked to build tanks as soon as war is declared. The watchmaker will have neither the required material, plans nor most importantly the mindset and techniques required.
 

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Never underestimate the foolishness of a racist.
Sure, but hold on a minute. Judged by 2018 standards, exactly which major historical conflict was free from this racism? In some it played a more overt rule than others, but an argument can be made that racism was one of the fundamental driving factors in virtually every human conflict in recorded history.

The Hutu massacre the Tutsi and everyone proclaims it a racial genocide. The Romans wipe the Carthaginians off the face of the planet and it's cast as a "conflict between great powers." Yeah, okay.

Stalin was a racist and a maniac, but he won. So did Mao and tons of other historical leaders. We like to pretend it isn't true, and historians will go to some lengths to sidestep the issue, but in the end a whole lot of the world's conflicts come down to some form of racism. So saying racists are foolish is kind of meaningless in this context.

On the subject of galactic stupidity and batshit crazy, that's almost just as difficult to parse as racism when it comes to world conflicts. Even with the benefit of hindsight (or perhaps because of it...), it's all too easy to simply dismiss any leader who led their forces to catastrophic defeat as crazy or stupid. Was Hannibal Barca stupid or crazy? More than any other single individual, he was most responsible for what ultimately befell the Carthaginians. At the time, fighting Rome probably seemed like a reasonable choice, even though it would lead to nearly every citizen being killed and being forced to watch their children sold into slavery.

So which historical leaders have suffered catastrophic defeats who weren't crazy, stupid, or racist? That's too easy an explanation.
 

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The thing is, if we're talking about pre-war, I'm not sure it's fair to criticize the Japanese pilot training program. It produced aircrew who were, by most accounts, superior to the US and Commonwealth pilots they faced off against in 1941-42, and provided a sufficient number for the war they thought they'd be fighting. I'm just curious about whether, when the war got going and it became clear they weren't going to be fighting a short conflict with an abrupt and decisive resolution, they were limited more by their protocols or their resources in this area. It seems like, 'Samurai Spirit' or not, the Japanese were often quite willing to make tactical and production adjustments when they saw things weren't working but were hampered by their straightened circumstances.
 

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The thing is, if we're talking about pre-war, I'm not sure it's fair to criticize the Japanese pilot training program. It produced aircrew who were, by most accounts, superior to the US and Commonwealth pilots they faced off against in 1941-42 and provided a sufficient number for the war they thought they'd be fighting. I'm just curious about whether, when the war got going and it became clear they weren't going to be fighting a short conflict with an abrupt and decisive resolution, they were limited more by their protocols or their resources in this area. It seems like, 'Samurai Spirit' or not, the Japanese were often quite willing to make tactical and production adjustments when they saw things weren't working but were hampered by their straightened circumstances.
Historical source information illustrates the Japanese were not inclined to adopting new or different tactics, nor production techniques. The much-belated attempts at obtaining anything resembling mass production assembly were quickly ended in 1944 with the B-29 air raids. ( They were not even begun until January of that year.) Ship production was pathetically slow, given the capability of their shipyards 1942-1944 (before massed B29 raids). Some of that can be attributed to a lack of iron and steel, copper and other needed metals for ship fabrication. Yet the IJN merchant fleet was not anywhere near decimated in 1942 or even well into 1943. USN unrestricted submarine warfare was not able to put the stranglehold on the IJN merchant shipping until mid 1943 and beyond, after the many issues with faulty torpedo exploders had been solved, and after mass production of the Balao, Gato and Tench class boats had really begun in earnest, with subs rolling off the ways at a rate of 1 every 40-or so days. (The best time I have heard from keel laying to launch on a Balao was 13 days, but they did that more to show Americans it could be done than as an effort at such a fast pace.)

Japanese did not change armor tactics at all until Iwo Jima in 1945, with turning them into dug in pillboxes. They did not change their long outdated human wave tactics until late 1944, with the invasion of Peleliu, and even then, only halfway through the battle did they change it. They never changed their tactical or operational ideas of a "mass battle" naval confrontation, even to surrender. They did not change their ideas on pilot training ever and did not change the primary employment method of attack aircraft until midway through the late 1944 Philippines battles with the adoption of Special Attack Units. They did not even attempt a coordinated convoy system change for their vital merchant shipping until mid-1944, well beyond the point of being too late. They never changed the tactical planning of basing naval forces in forward areas, where they were and remained cut off after being bypassed.

There is not really any evidence that the Imperial Japanese War Cabinet under Tojo ever considered changing or adopting any new tactics or production methods. They had the capability to mass produce updated weapons but never incorporated it. They had the capability to adjust tactics, but failed to do so time and again.

Pre-war Japanese pilot training was forged in the battles in China to a fighting edge. This really was the focal point of Japanese expansionism, and if the embargoes of 1940-1941 had never occurred, it is doubtful that even Pearl Harbor would have been attempted. The main "what if" becomes how America would have reacted if China looked so seriously threatened it might actually completely collapse and become entirely occupied by Japan. The historical records show how little of a priority the CBI theater was, even in light of a shooting war with Japan after Pearl Harbor. Japan would have been in a much better operational position had they conquered China first, then turned on America (but that does not mean that theUS would in any way have lost- the capability of American mass production of newer and better armaments meant they would still win the economic, and then the shooting, war.)

There is some evidence FDR was quite concerned with the US economy by Jan of 1945, but his failing health did not allow for any drastic changes beyond adding more and more "war bond drives", stricter rationing controls of vital resources, longer work hours without increased pay (voluntary excess of manpower hours in production lines). to be implemented before the war was finally won. I do agree that the US, if forced to maintain the levels of production required to win the two ocean war and its allies armies in the field, may have been severely strained to do so beyond December 1946.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Yuri0352

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Well said. American and British assessments of the Japanese were also, unfortunately, equally comical. Reports of poor night vision because of slanted eyes comes to mind on the one hand, and on the other reports that they received extensive 'jungle training' and were near supermen on the other. One of the elements of "Easy Company's" history (Co. E, 506 PIR) that is not well known because it wasn't in the movie, was a mutli-day, long-distance forced march in the United States, specifically to disprove the notion that the Japanese soldier had some other-worldly level of endurance.
The American and French assessments of the dedication and fighting abilities of the Viet Minh and Viet Cong/NVA was a little 'off' as well.
 

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Sure, but hold on a minute. Judged by 2018 standards, exactly which major historical conflict was free from this racism? In some it played a more overt rule than others, but an argument can be made that racism was one of the fundamental driving factors in virtually every human conflict in recorded history.

The Hutu massacre the Tutsi and everyone proclaims it a racial genocide. The Romans wipe the Carthaginians off the face of the planet and it's cast as a "conflict between great powers." Yeah, okay.

Stalin was a racist and a maniac, but he won. So did Mao and tons of other historical leaders. We like to pretend it isn't true, and historians will go to some lengths to sidestep the issue, but in the end a whole lot of the world's conflicts come down to some form of racism. So saying racists are foolish is kind of meaningless in this context.

On the subject of galactic stupidity and batshit crazy, that's almost just as difficult to parse as racism when it comes to world conflicts. Even with the benefit of hindsight (or perhaps because of it...), it's all too easy to simply dismiss any leader who led their forces to catastrophic defeat as crazy or stupid. Was Hannibal Barca stupid or crazy? More than any other single individual, he was most responsible for what ultimately befell the Carthaginians. At the time, fighting Rome probably seemed like a reasonable choice, even though it would lead to nearly every citizen being killed and being forced to watch their children sold into slavery.

So which historical leaders have suffered catastrophic defeats who weren't crazy, stupid, or racist? That's too easy an explanation.
I think you missed my point. My point was that racism can cause a group to grossly underestimate the opposition. By viewing them as automatically less intelligent and capable one allows the other side an advantage. This is different than just hating the opposition or just another racial group.
 

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Historical source information illustrates the Japanese were not inclined to adopting new or different tactics, nor production techniques. The much-belated attempts at obtaining anything resembling mass production assembly were quickly ended in 1944 with the B-29 air raids. ( They were not even begun until January of that year.) Ship production was pathetically slow, given the capability of their shipyards 1942-1944 (before massed B29 raids). Some of that can be attributed to a lack of iron and steel, copper and other needed metals for ship fabrication. Yet the IJN merchant fleet was not anywhere near decimated in 1942 or even well into 1943. USN unrestricted submarine warfare was not able to put the stranglehold on the IJN merchant shipping until mid 1943 and beyond, after the many issues with faulty torpedo exploders had been solved, and after mass production of the Balao, Gato and Tench class boats had really begun in earnest, with subs rolling off the ways at a rate of 1 every 40-or so days. (The best time I have heard from keel laying to launch on a Balao was 13 days, but they did that more to show Americans it could be done than as an effort at such a fast pace.)

Japanese did not change armor tactics at all until Iwo Jima in 1945, with turning them into dug in pillboxes. They did not change their long outdated human wave tactics until late 1944, with the invasion of Peleliu, and even then, only halfway through the battle did they change it. They never changed their tactical or operational ideas of a "mass battle" naval confrontation, even to surrender. They did not change their ideas on pilot training ever and did not change the primary employment method of attack aircraft until midway through the late 1944 Philippines battles with the adoption of Special Attack Units. They did not even attempt a coordinated convoy system change for their vital merchant shipping until mid-1944, well beyond the point of being too late. They never changed the tactical planning of basing naval forces in forward areas, where they were and remained cut off after being bypassed.

There is not really any evidence that the Imperial Japanese War Cabinet under Tojo ever considered changing or adopting any new tactics or production methods. They had the capability to mass produce updated weapons but never incorporated it. They had the capability to adjust tactics, but failed to do so time and again.
So I was too free with the use of the word "often" but by your own text the Japanese were sometimes open to adopting new methods in light of failure (changing infantry tactics in 1944, at least recognizing the need for mass production even if air raids made that impractical) so my question remains: if they didn't adopt new pilot training methods, was that due to implacable inertia (whether founded in "samurai spirit", denialism, or whatever) or lack of resources?
 

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So I was too free with the use of the word "often" but by your own text the Japanese were sometimes open to adopting new methods in light of failure (changing infantry tactics in 1944, at least recognizing the need for mass production even if air raids made that impractical) so my question remains: if they didn't adopt new pilot training methods, was that due to implacable inertia (whether founded in "samurai spirit", denialism, or whatever) or lack of resources?
The former. A better understanding of their inferiority in production capacity and ability to transfer resources to the needed locations could have resulted in mass-produced Zeros and Kates and Jills along with the given plans for the Tony (a copy of the ME-109F-3). flown by competent pilots trained by expert combat-proven cadre, would have made the PTO air war much more costly for the Allies than it was. Thier own doctrine prevented this from occurring.
 

Paul M. Weir

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The former. A better understanding of their inferiority in production capacity and ability to transfer resources to the needed locations could have resulted in mass-produced Zeros and Kates and Jills along with the given plans for the Tony (a copy of the ME-109F-3). flown by competent pilots trained by expert combat-proven cadre, would have made the PTO air war much more costly for the Allies than it was. Thier own doctrine prevented this from occurring.
I would disagree with the Ki-61 Hien aka Tony being a Bf-109 clone, they really only shared the engine design (DB 601A), though some allied pilots initially thought it a copy. Being the only Japanese fighter powered by an inline engine, that misconception, allied to some racist underestimation of Japanese aviation design skills, might be understandable at the time.

However I agree that mindset was a major factor. Japan had only emerged from being a medieval feudal state with the Meiji Restoration in 1868, a mere seventy odd years before. There was still a very strong clan element to Japanese society. Early on a clan might be inclined to join the army, while their rivals would join the navy. The IJA vs IJN rivalry could be quite lethal. Pre-war Yamamoto was moved from the naval ministry to command the Combined Fleet to keep him safe from IJA assassins. Think Reps vs Dems today :eek:, and turn it up to 11!

Pre-war the major industrial groups (Zaibatsu) were little more than powerful clan or post-clan entities sometimes effectively having their own political parties. A lot of that attitude survived the war, though that type of network has weakened. The Japanese concept of "Salaryman", dominant post war was more akin to a medieval villien or serf than that of a Western individual employee.

It's not that other powers didn't have faulty mindsets but the barely post feudal Japanese one was particularly unsuited to a war that was dominated by technology and industry.
 
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