Was this really a police tank?

MadDog_CDN

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Well, I am not sure, but from what I found, with my limited research ability, is that this maybe the 4th SS, which I find odd as the tank is on display in a museum in Germany....

 

Paul M. Weir

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That's 60th PzGen Feldherrnhalle, an army (Heer) unit. Though originally built around SA members, it was not a SS unit. The Feldherrnhalle was a monument in Munich where Hitler's rowdy pub crawl came to a sticky end. You will see the insignia (a Wolfsangel, a wolf-hook/trap) on some of the German counters included in FB.

However beware as variations were used by 2nd SS (Das Reich), 4th SS (Polizei) and 34th SS (Landstorm Nederland), so easy to get confused.
 

MadDog_CDN

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Thank you Paul.

That is a Panther Ausf A Early? Or is it late as the head light is different from early, I believe.
 

Paul M. Weir

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It's an Ausf A alright. A mid to late production (the early Ausf A used the 'letterbox' type hull MG flap of the Ausf D). As for the light, it's the pre and early war pattern of blackout light aka "Notek". Though the "Bosch" style would be more appropriate for any Panther, they were both removable and smashable. I don't know whether the museum didn't have the right parts or they got the Panther with the Notek. I could imagine a Panther with both it's Bosch lights (later Panthers usually had only one) shot away and the only spares were the old Noteks, so the maintenance people stuck a Notek on.

The Germans had a habit of when a newer and flashier version of some fittings like lights came out they often could be back fitted to earlier mountings. For example when the Pz III moved from 38cm (Ausf E-G) to 40cm tracks (Ausf H-N), the old drive sprockets could be used by replacing the toothed sprocket rings with spacer disks and new sprocket rings, retaining the core and all the mounting stuff. So you could see 40cm tracks with the earlier 8 hole drive sprocket central disks, but not the later 6 spoke drive sprocket with 38cm tracks.

Oh, as a small aside, the dummy in the video clip definitely appears to be wearing a Heer (army) tanker's black uniform. The eagle is on the chest and the Totenkopf on the collars, though similar to the 3rd SS Panzer collar patches, were standard for the Heer Panzer arm (but not StuG, Panzer Grenadier, Aufklärung, Panzer Jager, etc within a Panzer division).
 
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Paul M. Weir

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Glad that helps.

Now that I think of it, for the Pz III, I think that they only had to add spacer rings between the bulk of the drive sprocket and the toothed outer ring. While the tracks were 2cm wider, they had the same pitch (IE front to rear), so the old teeth should work. Given the wear the drive sprocket's teeth would get, the maintenance people would be tempted to change those as well, any chance to catch up with more routine maintenance would be welcomed and taken. Besides, a change in track and it's width would be a bit more than trivial job and would usually only be done when the old stocks were gone.

Most AFV that I can think of use a similar breakdown. The hub had a pair of toothed rings bolted on. Now while for speed you might replace the whole sprocket, once things quietened down you unbolted the toothed ring(s) and put new ones onto the old hub which now became part of your spares cache. The only parts needed from the rear echelons would be the toothed rings.
 

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It helped a lot and I found a decal set with that marking included. Funny thing is Paul I was watching a youtube about Panthers and they stated the same thing you said about the early Ausf A having a similar machine gun portal as the Ausf D, which is funny as the model kits I have looked at, Dragon, Tamiya, claim that all early Ausf A's, have the bulge one. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I passed your information about the tracks over to a modeler on youtube who just did a video about Panzer III tracks and he was pleasantly surprized, his video is very good and he talks about winterketten, ostketten and an insert, actually two part insert, for the Pz III tracks.


On the Panther what was that metal brace around the middle of the turret for? Or was it added later? I have never seen that on a Panther before. If I may ask one more question, when did German tanks get external fire extingushers?
Did allied tanks get them also? Finally in the video about German armour I watched the panzers were pulling a wagon behind them with two barrels on it, were those the 200 ltr fuel barrels?


Thanks,
Richard
 

Paul M. Weir

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While the old eyesight is bad and I missed the 'brace' until you mentioned it, it is unusual for a Panther. The Germans did hang track links on the Panther's turret sides, but by hooks welded onto the top edge of the turret side wall. Besides, the gap looks far to small to allow a section of track to fit. My guess and it is a just a guess, is that the Germans copied the Soviet addition of hand rails to the turret side to allow tank riders to hang on.

As for hand held fire extinguishers, I think they were there right from the start. I have some Pz I A models that have one on the left hand front track guard. While I'm not as much into Western or Japanese tanks as German and Soviet ones, many had them. Given that not only were AFV intended for combat where there is a risk from incendiary effects from projectiles, but long before they are put at risk by the enemy, they were temperamental and flammable beasts in their own right. A significant example was the British tried to market a Medium (a Vickers Medium Mk C or D?, similar to a single tank that Ireland bought) to the Japanese. While demonstrating it, upon starting it caught fire, seriously injuring at least one crewman. While embarrassing to the British, the Japanese decided that Diesel would be a better way to go rather than the bad example of a Petrol engined tank. So the later production of the Type 89, very similar to the Vickers design, switched from Petrol to Diesel. So I would be very surprised if most tanks didn't have fire extinguishers, either external or internal.

I've seen similar photos of Panzers towing trailers with the standard 200l fuel drums. I think most of those were only used in the initial Barbarossa moves. I've mainly seen Pz II and Pz 38(t) towing them though I have a vague memory of Pz III and IV also doing so. I have a suspicion that they were more common with Army Group South with longer and poorer supply lines through Romania and Hungary as well as long distances in Ukraine. I don't remember similar from later campaigns, though individual units/AFV may have done the same later.
 

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While I'm not as much into Western or Japanese tanks as German and Soviet ones
Am I the only one who smiled when reading this sentence - coming from Paul?

Right man, you're not that much into Western or Japanese tanks. It's just that you can usually tell the exact variant from a grainy photo of about anything. But, well, everybody can, it's no big deal, right?
 

Paul M. Weir

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Am I the only one who smiled when reading this sentence - coming from Paul?

Right man, you're not that much into Western or Japanese tanks. It's just that you can usually tell the exact variant from a grainy photo of about anything. But, well, everybody can, it's no big deal, right?
Smile or not, it's true. Now understand that the number of books that I have on a theme is as much a reflection of what is published rather than simply as my interest in same. So I have lots of books on German AFV as publishers considered them far more marketable and sexy than other nations. The lack of English language serious original research on Soviet Armour is also a problem for publishers. I have some books that are on or also cover Western and Japanese but I don't really seek them out. I have 3 roughly thick magazine style books (Armata? series) on Japanese armour and about the same number of 'all countries' books that also cover them compared to multiple hundreds on German AFV.

While I had a good grounding in "what is what" from a '70s book on tanks, I did not much explore the details of what we might call Other AFV (IE non-German/Soviet) until the Internet really took off and became a useful and moderately reliable source. So while I could tell at a glance what is what and what is its gun, armour, etc is if it's German or Soviet, if it's US, British, French or Japanese I regularly would have to check my memory against books or internet. I have been consulted on AFV with regards to counter values for counters not in the system and find that I have to research things like horsepower/weight (a good guide to MP values) for all, but for the Others I often have to check a lot more details. While answering queries here I regularly recheck stuff so as not to mislead.

While your "everybody can" is clearly being facetious, there is a lot of truth in that. Anyone who can play and understand ASL to some decent degree clearly is not dumb. I strongly suspect that the average person here is within the top 10% of intelligence, likely few true geniuses , but definitely the cream. And odd as two left feet to boot :). It's just a question of effort, exposure and lots of patience, simple volume of data, graphic or text, no math, no ultra complex logic, just memory. Anyone here could do it. I won't recommend either way. If your curiosity has been piqued then go for it, if not then enjoy the other aspects of the game. It takes all sorts to make up the ASL community, not every one has to be the history nerd. I, though I play, would not consider myself a Player or Gamer, just a player and nerd. Anyway people have to have a life and ASL is only a game and when it starts to feel like a shïtty job then you should reevaluate your approach to ASL.

I have an edge in AFV stuff because of my long interest in plastic models. Anyone here can surpass my level, it just takes time (and likely having no life ;)). If your exposure to such stuff intrigues you then google and ask here and other sites, if not, then don't. It's still a hobby and should distract, relax and refresh you, not keep you up at nights or give you a coronary.
 

Philippe D.

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Hey, no problem, it's just that I believe most here would agree you're far more the expert on WWII AFVs (all of them) than, well, at least 90% (conservative estimate) of the community. Being more of an expert than me is no big deal (I'm not sure I would have been able to point out the Sherman from the Tiger when I saw them in a museum if they had not been labelled as such [and in their respective nationality-themed rooms]), but you're obviously in the (far) top tier when it comes to AFV knowledge.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Agreed, it's no big deal. I just wanted, in my usual long winded way, to say that (1) I don't have complete knowledge and (2) though my relative knowledge may seem intimidating, it's well within anybody's (here at least) capability, so if that's your fancy then go for it.

As an illustration of my limits, nearly all the KNIL stuff contained in BFP's B&J was completely new to me as well as some of the Japanese toys in same.

In learning, don't be afraid. Of course you will get things wrong, sometimes embarrassingly wrong. Do you think I didn't or still don't? But it will get better and red faces less frequent. Don't try to absorb too much at a time. The best way for something like this is when you find something interesting and google follow it up as far as your interest desires. Each bit builds up and by keeping your 'dosage' to within pleasant limits you won't be turned off.
 

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Smile or not, it's true. Now understand that the number of books that I have on a theme is as much a reflection of what is published rather than simply as my interest in same. So I have lots of books on German AFV as publishers considered them far more marketable and sexy than other nations. The lack of English language serious original research on Soviet Armour is also a problem for publishers. I have some books that are on or also cover Western and Japanese but I don't really seek them out. I have 3 roughly thick magazine style books (Armata? series) on Japanese armour and about the same number of 'all countries' books that also cover them compared to multiple hundreds on German AFV.

While I had a good grounding in "what is what" from a '70s book on tanks, I did not much explore the details of what we might call Other AFV (IE non-German/Soviet) until the Internet really took off and became a useful and moderately reliable source. So while I could tell at a glance what is what and what is its gun, armour, etc is if it's German or Soviet, if it's US, British, French or Japanese I regularly would have to check my memory against books or internet. I have been consulted on AFV with regards to counter values for counters not in the system and find that I have to research things like horsepower/weight (a good guide to MP values) for all, but for the Others I often have to check a lot more details. While answering queries here I regularly recheck stuff so as not to mislead.

While your "everybody can" is clearly being facetious, there is a lot of truth in that. Anyone who can play and understand ASL to some decent degree clearly is not dumb. I strongly suspect that the average person here is within the top 10% of intelligence, likely few true geniuses , but definitely the cream. And odd as two left feet to boot :). It's just a question of effort, exposure and lots of patience, simple volume of data, graphic or text, no math, no ultra complex logic, just memory. Anyone here could do it. I won't recommend either way. If your curiosity has been piqued then go for it, if not then enjoy the other aspects of the game. It takes all sorts to make up the ASL community, not every one has to be the history nerd. I, though I play, would not consider myself a Player or Gamer, just a player and nerd. Anyway people have to have a life and ASL is only a game and when it starts to feel like a shïtty job then you should reevaluate your approach to ASL.

I have an edge in AFV stuff because of my long interest in plastic models. Anyone here can surpass my level, it just takes time (and likely having no life ;)). If your exposure to such stuff intrigues you then google and ask here and other sites, if not, then don't. It's still a hobby and should distract, relax and refresh you, not keep you up at nights or give you a coronary.
Paul,

I believe that you are for good reason highly respected around here not only because of your unparalleled knowledge about 'all things tracked' and beyond but also because of your unassuming modesty that is paired with it.

I shall say, that you can wear this unique combination as true laurels, though you yourself would be loath to place them upon your brow.

My thanks to you for being who you are.

von Marwitz
 

Philippe D.

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My wife just asked me why I was laughing on my own while looking at the picture... thanks for the laugh.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Mad Dog, thanks for the video. I put off looking at it until today and was in a more receptive humour but both as a history nerd and occasional modeller, I found it quite interesting.

A follow on comment on the early Panther A. There were a fair number of internal differences between the A and D, most of which were effectively invisible, most were minor but there was some significant transmission/gearing changes as well as engine cooling tweaks. As you can imagine you might find mixes of A and D features coming out of the factory as old parts were used up. However as far as I know, the mark point for the transition is the cupola. So if you have what looks like a D with letterbox MG port and even the turret side pistol plugs (but not the larger communication port) but has the rounded 7 periscope cupola, it is an A. At least that's what my books said, if they said anything at all about the exact breakpoint. Of course they could have it wrong, you are talking about a 40+ year gap between WW2 and when the earliest decent books were written.
 
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