Walls and Hillock hex

[Doug Kirk]

Where in the rules does it address walls and hillock hexes? See hex Y7 on the Hatten map. Is the wall at level zero? thus a unit in Y7 can not gain wall advantage vs X7 or be hull down vs a firer in hex W10. Or since hex Y7 is a level 1/2 then the wall is at level 1/2 also, there by rising to level 1 in height and Y7 can gain WA and X7 can not gain WA.

The example from FB page FB6.....squad A has no LOS to squad K, seems to imply the hedge in F37/E38 is at level 0, but there is no mention of wall advantage.

 

[CTKnudsen]

My apologies - I don't have my copy of HiF yet, so this may be of even more limited use than my normal drek.

F6.411 states that "A unit (whether entrenched/Emplaced or not) on a hillock has a LOS past all walls/hedges whose topmost height along that LOS is < the viewing unit's elevation. Such a viewing unit also has a LOS past the first wall/hedge whose topmost height along that LOS equals the viewing unit's elevation—and can also see along that same LOS past a second such wall/hedge but only to Locations that are behind but adjacent to this second wall/hedge, and beyond such Locations to ≥ the viewing unit's elevation."

So as far as I can tell (and this seems to jive with the FB6.123 EX), the wall is a 1/2 level LOS obstacle rising out of the hex base level (0), the top of which is equal to a unit on the EmRR. If the wall in this example were a 1/2 level obstacle rising from level 1/2, that would make LOS even more of a pain than it already is, although then the unit (from the EX) in FB F37 could certainly see the unit in FB C39, as the hedge on the F37/E38 hexside would not factor in to LOS, and the hedge between D38 and E38 would be ignored as being at a lower level (I think).

But I would (hesitantly) agree that a unit which is (automatically) at level 1/2 on the EmRR cannot get WA or HD status along the Y7/X7 hexside, as the units on the EmRR are not at the same base level as the wall.

It raises an interesting question, though - what if some crazy map designer tries to put a wall on a hillock overlay? As if the hillock rules are not already weird enough. Although my bet would be that a half-level obstacle on a half-level obstacle (sorta) would just block LOS in the exact same manner as a normal wall - no effect from a higher level, limits to the adjacent hex from same/lower level.

Sorry for the convoluted response, I tend to think out loud - even as I type!

 

[Doug Kirk]

I came to the same conclusion...I know logic and ASL rules dont often mix, but logically, if the unit is at level 1/2 on the hillock, and then wall should be irrelevant.

 

[Doug Kirk]

Anyone else have thoughts?

 

[jrv]

Anyone else have thoughts?

I don't have a copy yet. Perhaps you could provide a picture.

JR

 

[Paul M. Weir]

The way I have read the hillock rule section is that it is talking about obstacles that are at ground level.

Your unit is ON a hillock that itself is based at level 0, your unit is at level 1/2. You can see past the next hillock/wall (base level 0, height 1/2) to ground level units without restriction, however if the LOS crosses a 2nd hillock/wall at base level 0 then you can only see the units immediately behind. That section is not talking about walls ON hillocks, just walls/hillocks ON level 0.

A wall ON a hillock would be a full level obstruction whose height would be level 1 or equivalent to a level 1 hill. Someone described a hillock as a very fat wall as far as LOS is concerned and you can stand on it.

 

[CTKnudsen]

Here are the hexes in question; note that the same situation applies to Y3-5 with the hedge.


I don't think the way the EmRR is drawn in Y7 helps much either, I'd have a much easier time swallowing this rule if the wall was on the Z7/Y8 hexside. But if we allowed a unit in an EmRR hex to gain WA, we'd basically have to create a crest status in the hex for when you were "on" the EmRR, and I don't think anyone wants to go there.

And if like me you are a simulationist, think of it this way: An EmRR is a WAY better place to take cover than a wall, largely because you can get away from it easier than if you had to pull back from the wall and then crest yourself getting over the EmRR to your rear. Since you can see over the wall and shoot up anyone approaching it anyways, why take the risk of getting caught moving over open ground back to the EmRR?

 

[Doug Kirk]

The question really comes down to where is the wall at, level 0 or level 1/2? Hillocks are inherent terrain so the whole hex is at level 1/2, not just the railroad depiction. For walls on hills we have a rule section that places the wall on the hill not the lower level. To the best of my review we do not have a section covering walls and hillocks.

Once you know what level the wall is on, then you can discuss Wall Advantage and LOS possibilities.

 

[Eagle4ty]

The question really comes down to where is the wall at, level 0 or level 1/2? Hillocks are inherent terrain so the whole hex is at level 1/2, not just the railroad depiction. For walls on hills we have a rule section that places the wall on the hill not the lower level. To the best of my review we do not have a section covering walls and hillocks.

Once you know what level the wall is on, then you can discuss Wall Advantage and LOS possibilities.

A hex includes its hexsides and a wall/hedge simply expands the width of that hexside, so I would intimate that the wall starts at level 0.5 and has a total height of 1 as it sits on the EmRR hex. JMHO

 

[CTKnudsen]

A hex includes its hexsides and a wall/hedge simply expands the width of that hexside, so I would intimate that the wall starts at level 0.5 and has a total height of 1 as it sits on the EmRR hex. JMHO

Yes, and I'm not saying that isn't the case here - however then the LOS example in FB is incorrect, unless I am misunderstanding quite a bit. And should the wall not then work more like a hillside wall/hedge, even though there is a clear Level 0 height depiction in Y7?

I think that the wall being at level 0, with a level 1/2 obstacle (that is treated like a hillock for LOS purposes, and which units in the hex are always considered to be ON) in the adjacent hex, is how we are supposed to look at it.

But I'm not sure, and you may (hell, probably are, given my track record) be right.

 

[jrv]

I believe that B32.2 applies here, "Although the RR hexes on overlays provided in DOOMED BATTALIONS contain no other terrain [EXC: potential RR Crossings, 32.4], other terrain types (woods, grain, brush, etc.) could potentially exist in a RR hex (by SSR or via future overlays). Except for GLRR, this additional terrain would not be at the base Level of the hex (i.e., not at the same level of as the RR), but rather would be considered to be at the level that the RR itself rises from (for EmRR and ElRR) or falls from (for SuRR) [EXC: bridges]." In this case the hedge would rise from ground level to level ½. A unit on the emrr cannot gain WA because it is at a different level.

JR

 

[CTKnudsen]

Oh for goodness sakes, how the hell did I miss that?

Thanks again, jrv.

 

[Doug Kirk]

I believe that B32.2 applies here, "Although the RR hexes on overlays provided in DOOMED BATTALIONS contain no other terrain [EXC: potential RR Crossings, 32.4], other terrain types (woods, grain, brush, etc.) could potentially exist in a RR hex (by SSR or via future overlays). Except for GLRR, this additional terrain would not be at the base Level of the hex (i.e., not at the same level of as the RR), but rather would be considered to be at the level that the RR itself rises from (for EmRR and ElRR) or falls from (for SuRR) [EXC: bridges]." In this case the hedge would rise from ground level to level ½. A unit on the emrr cannot gain WA because it is at a different level.

JR

Why would the hedge rise from level 0? An emrr hex is a hillock hex, hillocks are inherent terrain and are level 1/2. Why wouldn't the hedge rise from level 1/2 using the rule you just stated? I think what you are saying makes sense and fits the FB example, but I think it's far from clear.

 

[jrv]

Why would the hedge rise from level 0? An emrr hex is a hillock hex, hillocks are inherent terrain and are level 1/2. Why wouldn't the hedge rise from level 1/2 using the rule you just stated? I think what you are saying makes sense and fits the FB example, but I think it's far from clear.

As the rule I quoted says, with a RR hex additional terrain rises from ground level underneath the RR, not from the RR itself. If it had been a true hillock hex then it's a real problem because there is no similar rule for true hillocks, and all the arguments used in the thread would be unresolved. For RR hexes other terrain rises from the level that the hiillock rises from. Although it's simple to visualize the entire hex as being at level ½ because the terrain is inherent, the rules writers are much more flip with the rules and quite willing to pull the rug out from under your visualization of the terrain if it is convenient for them. So all units are at level ½ but all other terrain starts at level zero. Ultimately it's because that's what the rules say.

JR

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I tend to agree with jrv. A RR hex can be considered a hillock hex for units on them as they can decide which part of the 40m hex suits them, the extra elevation can be a tactical advantage. However in real life I have yet to see a raised rail line that has significant screening vegetation at the same level, that is nearly all at the base level, ditto walls. The hedges and walls that keep cows and children off the line only need be at normal ground level. The 40 m long, 5-10 m wide embankment on the other hand is more than sufficient to hold a squad or three.