Wall TEM/bypass question

klasmalmstrom

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Hi,

In the attached illustration below a German unit is bypassing from hex L12 to into hex M12 (over the wall at L12/M12/M13) along the M12
M13 hexside, paying 2MFs. Blue arrow

At vertex M12/M13/N12 a British unit fires at it from the Ground Level of hex N11 (i.e. Level 1) - red arrow.

Is the Wall Tem applicable in this attack ?



Regards,
Klas Malmström
 

Robin Reeve

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The N11/M12 wall seems to be a Hillside wall (B 9.6 2ns ed RB)... A unit at lower level never recieves any benefit from the wall (incl WA) [B 9.62], so that one has no effect.
The N12/M12 one seems to be the real problem... and the difference of levels makes no difference.
As the LOS runs along that wall, I would tend to say the wall does provide TEM (B 9.3 says that fire through a hexspine is subect to the TEM if the target is in the Location formed by that hexspine).
I presume it is more the visual situation than the rules that could lead not to apply the TEM (one would perhaps like to be allowed to fire at all portions of the hexside bypassed, and not only at vertexes or at the hexes' center :rolleyes:)...
 

Ole Boe

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Congratulations Klas, you've found one of the ASLRB's black holes. There simply doesn't exist any rule telling us how wall TEM applies when the LOS is drawn to a vertex or hexside :nuts:

The only rule we have is B9.3, saying "Fire traced through a wall/hedge hexside or hexspine may be subject to a TEM for that wall/hedge if the target is in the Location formed by that hexside/hexspine.".

Note that this requires the LOS to go through, i.e. into and out of the wall, not only into. The problem is that when a unit is in bypass, the LOS is drawn to a vertex, and therefore only into the wall, never out of it, and thus never through it.

So, if we were to follow the existing rules, a wall belonging to the target vertex could never provide TEM. This is not how it works though, since the A4.34 example shows several situations where such a wall provides TEM. So there must be a rule for this, except that it isn't in the rulebook. The example tells us enough to give a clear answer for your question though: The M12/N12 wall provides TEM.

If I were to write a "vertex LOS and wall TEM" rule, I would suggest that the area from where the LOS would be obstructed by the wall, would be the area bordered by (and including):
1) The alternate hexgrain that the wall hexside is part of, and
2) The alternate hexgrain going through the target hex' center dot and the target vertex.

Fire from anywhere between those two alternate hex grain borders should receive wall TEM, fire from outside those two would not.

In the provided example, the two alternate hexgrains would be:
1) One starting at the M12/N12/M13 vertex, and going through N11's center dot.
2) Another going from M12's center through N13's center.

So The M12/N12 wall would provide TEM to the M12/N12/M13 vertex, from N11-13 and O10-15, but not from N10, N14+ or M13+.
 

WaterRabbit

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Ole, you only have yourself to blame here -- you could have fixed it on the rewrite of B9. :cheeky:

I think this is too complicated -- just give the unit the wall TEM at the vertex regardless of direction of attack. The examples in chapter A support this and it is simple and easy to remember. I can't remember anyone playing it any different until your discussion on the other thread concerning this issue.
 

Ole Boe

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WaterRabbit said:
Ole, you only have yourself to blame here -- you could have fixed it on the rewrite of B9. :cheeky:
Yes, I should... :nervous:

I think this is too complicated -- just give the unit the wall TEM at the vertex regardless of direction of attack. The examples in chapter A support this and it is simple and easy to remember. I can't remember anyone playing it any different until your discussion on the other thread concerning this issue.
I agree that its simple, but I otherwise disagree, as I think it totally breaks with what it simulates. Look at Klas' illustration again, and assume a bypass from N12 to the M11/M12/N11 vertex in N11. With your suggestion, even fire from N10, or N11 (1st level) would be hindered by wall TEM, although both attacks are clearly coming from the same side of the wall as the unit, and the LOS can therefore not be considered to cross the wall.

I also disagree that the A4.34 example supports it, since the example uses several sentences to give examples of LOF where the TEM applies, instead of saying that the TEM applies from all directions, as you suggest.

But until we get a Perry sez, your interpretation is as good as mine, since the A4.34 example doesn't give any examples of LOS to such a vertex where the wall TEM doesn't apply. Both interpretations break with B9.3's requirement of the LOS going through the wall, and both interpretations are in line with the A4.34 example. Yours are clearly simpler, but mine is (IMHO of course) more in line with the logic of non-bypass wall LOS.
 
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Robin Reeve

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As a rule of thumb, in case of doubt, shouldn't one choose the solution that is the less advatageous for the firer?
Like in the case of multiple hex FG with different TEMs/DRMs...
I see that that 'ghost principle' exists behind many rules (and not only in ASL)...
Of course, once a question is made clear by an official input (not only Perry Sez, but an official errata), the 'ghost rule' may return in the limbo... ;)
 

CHERDE

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We should try to elaborate a ready solution for this issue.

The thread in PERRY SEZ
http://www.war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10297

is not satisfiing, nor are the rules.

The EX from A 4 .34 and A 8.15 (? - NRBH) are good clues to solve the question.

As far as now I fully agree with Ole Boe.

I will return to this issue when RBH.:D
 

Ole Boe

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I weren't aware of the Perry sez that CHERDE points to. Fortunately, it seems to say the same that I suggested, although in a different way.

The Q&A seems to say that the LOS has to go through (including along a hexside) of the other hex that the wall hexside is part of.

Now, this is a simpler (and thus better) way of defining the wall TEM to apply from exactly the same hexes as I suggested with my Alternate Hexgrain theory - so I guess I can stick with that in the future :D
 

CHERDE

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Hedge/Wall TEM for Bypass and Snap Shots

My personal wording of the rules is (wall=wall /hedge):

Bypass
Wall TEM applies when Bypass hex (=Target hex - C.5C) shares entire wall hexside (vertex is not enough) with adjacent hex , which is crossed or touched by LOS (LOS touches vertex or hexside is enough) - refer to Example in
ASLRB A 4.34 LOS from 2C6 to D4/C5/D5.

Wall TEM applies when LOS along entire wall hexspine and target vertex is part of hexspine.


Snap Shot
The hexside crossed by the target unit does not provide wall TEM . Only another hexside of the Target hex (C.5C) which is crossed by LOS (LOS touches vertex is enough) can provide wall TEM.

I am definitely interesed in comments and opinions.
 
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