Wall/hedge - different treatment of LOS and TEM?

MichalS

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Hi all,

while playing Wintergewitter through VASL with Juan Santacruz we had a problematic situation with a hedge. On one of the hexsides the hedge depiction did not go all the way to the vertex. While measuring for LOS, one of my tanks was just about in view by a T34, about to conduct DFF. This has led to a discussion.

My interpretation is that the vertex is always considered to be part of the wall/hedge, even if the depiction does not go all the way. This is how I believe the example in B9.1 is to be read: "An attack ... is affected by the hedge hexside ... even though the hedge depiction does not actually extend to the vertex." Also note B9.1: "except for obvious breaks in the depiction" (and see also B9.42). That would mean that functionally there is no difference between LOS and TEM (hold on, I'll explain).

Juan's interpretation is along the way of obvious interruptions of walls/hedges, there for movement purposes, usually in the middle of the hexside. He says that (i) there is LOS, if LOS does not cross the depiction, and (ii) if in the same hex, the unit would have TEM even if the LOS does not cross the depiction. (Although note B9.3: "... the wall/hedge TEM can only apply if the target is a non-moving unit". He also insisted this was different from indirect fire, B9.34.) Which would imply different treatment of the "unfinished" hedge/wall depiction for LOS and for TEM purposes.

Thanks in advance for your help!
 

klasmalmstrom

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When it comes to a hedge not reaching the vertex (i.e., not a "gap" in mid-hexside) the wall is considered to extend all the way to the vertex and will effect LOS.

B9.1:
"The thick terrain depiction, as well as the hexside itself (inclusive of vertices), represents the wall/hedge and will affect any LOS through it, except for obvious breaks in depiction such as 6W9-X9."

But it is a little hard to tell from your example - perhaps you can provide information about which the hexes the LOS was drawn between?
 

Binchois

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If I understand you completely, you are correct. B9.1 is clearly saying that a vetex formed in part by a wall/hedge hexside is, itself, a wall/hedge vertex. Using my example below, LOS from 6X7 to 6W9 crosses the hedge and the shot suffers the +1 TEM. If the target was situated beyond this point - in, say, 6V10 - the LOS would blocked by the W8-W9-X8 vertex (to say nothing about the V9/W9 hedge).

8624

The sentence you cite: "The thick terrain depiction, as well as the hexside itself (inclusive of vertices), represents the wall/hedge and will affect any LOS through it, except for obvious breaks in the depiction such as 6W9-X9," shows clearly what is meant by "obvious breaks" (hexside 6W9/X9). But regarding W8-W9-X8, as you say, anything that "affects LOS" must either block LOS completely or else incur the hexside TEM.

P.S. It is tempting to apply a house rule to say that the wall/hedge depiction must actually be crossed, though I've never seen anyone do so. But similarly, some folks do prefer to trace an invisible crest line along the middle of woods (or other) obstacles to separate into two levels what should be woods entirely at the upper level (this practice tempting enough that some newer boards actually show a dotted-line crest line through such overlapping obstacles.
 
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MichalS

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Here is an image of our situation - map board 12, hexes V6-T9.
In our case the question arose if LOS exists; nevertheless Juan also argued that U8 would grant TEM benefits.
 

jrv

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I believe in this situation the LOS is blocked. The missing bit is not intended as an obvious break.

Also note that on my board 12 (or at least the one I use) that particular hedge extends to the vertex. If you send for a q&a you may want to make clear that your copy does not.

JR
 

EJ1

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I believe in this situation the LOS is blocked. The missing bit is not intended as an obvious break.

Also note that on my board 12 (or at least the one I use) that particular hedge extends to the vertex. If you send for a q&a you may want to make clear that your copy does not.

JR
Hi JR, given the missing bit is not intended as a break, how about the opposite, when the hedge/wall extends a bit beyond the vertex? If the LOS crosses the bit that extends beyond the vertex, is the LOS blocked? Cheers
 
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Ed Caswell

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Hi JR, given the missing bit is not intended as a break, how about the opposite, when the hedge/wall extends a bit beyond the vertex? If the LOS crosses the bit that extends beyond the vertex, is the LOS blocked? Cheers
I have always played that the wall/hedge artwork extending from a hexspine into the next hex is purely aesthetic in nature and does not affect LOS. Rules B9.1 and B.1 support this as I read them. I don't believe there has ever been a Q/A that addresses this, but I do believe there has been discussion on the forum regarding this.

Ed Caswell
 

Vinnie

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I think the rules disagree wit you.

"The thick terrain depiction, as well as the hexside itself (inclusive of vertices), represents the wall/hedge and will affect any LOS through it, except for obvious breaks in the depiction such as 6W9-X9."

If the hedge goes slightly beyond then that part can affect Los.

I have always played that the wall/hedge artwork extending from a hexspine into the next hex is purely aesthetic in nature and does not affect LOS. Rules B9.1 and B.1 support this as I read them. I don't believe there has ever been a Q/A that addresses this, but I do believe there has been discussion on the forum regarding this.

Ed Caswell
Dis
 

Binchois

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I think the rules disagree wit you.

"The thick terrain depiction, as well as the hexside itself (inclusive of vertices), represents the wall/hedge and will affect any LOS through it, except for obvious breaks in the depiction such as 6W9-X9."

If the hedge goes slightly beyond then that part can affect Los.


Dis
Agreed. And not to pile on Ed (sorry!), I think B.1 refers to the "dominant terrain" types of a hex and is not really meaning to limit hexside terrain at all (admittedly this isn't precisely stated by B.1). This argument seems particularly true in conjunction with B9.1.

There is also this Perry Sez ruling after, what I recall, was a lengthy discussion thread (an even more complicated situation).

Still, I wouldn't complain if my opponent wished to adopt a house rule that comports with Ed's reasonable, aesthetic preference. Just don't spring that opinion on me midgame!
 

zgrose

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How much aesthetic wall/hedge does it take before the whole hex side is a wall/hedge though? I think that's why most people ignore any wall/hedge nubs if the LOS thread doesn't cross to the "obvious" wall/hedge hex side. It can get messy, for sure, especially when it comes to intersections and bocage.
 

Ed Caswell

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Agreed. And not to pile on Ed (sorry!), I think B.1 refers to the "dominant terrain" types of a hex and is not really meaning to limit hexside terrain at all (admittedly this isn't precisely stated by B.1). This argument seems particularly true in conjunction with B9.1.

There is also this Perry Sez ruling after, what I recall, was a lengthy discussion thread (an even more complicated situation).

Still, I wouldn't complain if my opponent wished to adopt a house rule that comports with Ed's reasonable, aesthetic preference. Just don't spring that opinion on me midgame!
I believe the rules cited could be read to support either view, particularly B9.1. However, I also am more than happy to play the rules either way. Thanks for the comments.
 

Juan SantaX

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Hi all

Well, I have to admit I was wrong...

At least I didn´t try to take that shoot.... Because I´m so rusty with the rules, I always give up any discusion, to search later after the game.

But anyway, I think my problem is with understanding english.

As far I read, I thought that the terrain depiction has to be crossed, "...any LOS througth it..." The vertice can, or not, have terrain depiction, but if the LOS crosses it (edit: the terrain depiction) affect LOS.... That will be consistent with A 6.1. And the VASL tool to check LOS did it that way. In fact, we made the same check with another wall that fully covered the whole hexside to the vertice , and there the tool said there were no LOS. Maybe somebody can argue what is a obvious break, when the depiction is one or one an a half milimeters short of the vertice, but of course, it will not be me.

And to end my misunderstanding, I thought was a different regarding TEM and LOS... Because the fire must be traced through a wall/hedge hexside to get the TEM, but isn´t a requirement to cross the depiction..

But alas, I´m here to learn and enjoy, and it was a very tense game and close running game, with a PzIII shooting 9 times in a row (there is people around here that know the numbers of it, but I´m sure its ungodly science or magic), a HS self-rallyng once with snake eyes, to become disrupted (berserk with no enemys in LOS), rallied with a leader, got again broken, to roll again snake eyes, and got disrupted again!!

I will remember that rule next time, Michal!

Edit: and that one when you shoot to get APCR, and roll a 12, you dont have a second chance: it malfuntions !!!
 
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Rock SgtDan

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Lines are composed of a series of adjacent points (this is geometry, not any ASL usage of "adjacent").
If the point on the hexside line which lies immediately adjacent to the vertex has a wall/hedge upon it, then the vertex does as well.

wrt gaps: how the artwork is intended to be depicted by AH: IIRC, in all instances where a hexside has a gap, a length of wall/hedge extends from BOTH vertices. I don't think that AH intended to draw any V-shaped gaps.

The rules don't say if a wall/hedge can begin at a vertex and extend only partially along the hexside. Are there any instances of AH boards where the wall/hedge obviously extends about halfway and stops? I don't think so.

Instances of a bit of artwork "bleeding" past the vertex are part of printing tolerences. If you say they block LOS, then you negate the very useful "Geometry of ASL" method used to predict LOS.

Also, a "blob" should be like the rest of the linear artwork wrt any thickness. If you have a thread that is almost parallel to a hexside with a wall/hedge, does the thickness of the art block it? Or must the thread touch the hexside? If you allow thickness to count, then again you negate the Geometry of ASL" method.
 

Rock SgtDan

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and why is EVERY example board pic UPSIDE DOWN?
Can't you guy take the trouble to flip it so the hex ID can be read?
 

Juan SantaX

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Hi:

Then you think as the rest of players from the game squad forum. I was wrong. My mistake was prompted by a series of factors (and that’s not an excuse). First my knowledge of English, second thinking that is not the same crossing an hedge depiction (block los) than crossing a hedge hexside (gives tem), thinking that it was consistent with rule A.6.1, and to end my misunderstanding, and most important I think, the VASL tool to check LOS seems to work as I thought it should work (you can check that on board 12 from the example).

At then end I learnt the rule, and I didn’t shoot that pzIV (neither counted the mp for aiming purposes).

To me, the VASL tool for checking LOS was enough to despise Michal understanding (proper understanding) of the rules.

Cheers

(Edit: Geometry must be another kind of ungodly science, isn’t it?)
 

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