VOTG vs Red Barricades

[CraigBenn]

So,
obviously time will tell, and the two have a very different feel. But VOTG has been around long enough for you old timers to have pushed some cardboard past the Univermag....

which is better?

Decisions with reasons please.

 

[King Billy]

I have had RB since it was first released, and I got VotG in April. I have played more VotG than I have RB.

In my view VotG is an evolution of RB. There are many things in VotG that I am sure would work really well in RB, had the designers had the experience in HASL that they had for VotG.

Mind you, I have not played a CG in either of them, so perhaps my perspectives would change if I were to.

Bill

 

[Tork]

I have enjoyed watching people make the assumption that a VotG CG will play the same way that a RB CG will. Things like 'if the Germans can't kill at a 2:1 basis, they are doing something wrong' in particular. There is a big difference between RB conscripts and VotG Guards companies.

The rules of thumb for VotG have yet to be determined. I think OBA is more important in VotG (gut feeling, have to see if that continues). Others??

As to which one is better?? Personal opinion will prevail. I've played most of the VotG scenarios at one point or another, compared to about half of the RB ones. I've enjoyed them all.

I wonder which gaming group will be the first to go back through the RB CGs using the innovations from VotG??

 

[Honza]

For me Red Barricades is better. At the moment.

I prefer the industrial terrain of RB to the urban terrain of VotG. I also prefer the map and the OOB.

Have not played any VotG yet so I'm not sure what the experience would be like, but I've been following players CG games closely on the forum and although the games look like great fun I think RB is a better playing experience for me personally.

 

[Honza]

I wonder which gaming group will be the first to go back through the RB CGs using the innovations from VotG??

Hi Jim,

What do you mean by this statement? Do you mean adding some of the rules from VotG to the RB CG's? I'm curious.

 

[Bryan Holtby]

Hi Jim,

What do you mean by this statement? Do you mean adding some of the rules from VotG to the RB CG's? I'm curious.

Yes, I think thats exactly what he means.

 

[pward]

Hi Jim,

What do you mean by this statement? Do you mean adding some of the rules from VotG to the RB CG's? I'm curious.

I for one think that the strongpoints should go into RB, even if there aren't any NKVD to make em even better. The two big stone buildings on the east side of RB (Chemist + Commissars houses), and the N5 building (I think) scream out to be historical or battalion strongpoints. Might make keeping them in the face of a German assault a little better of a proposition.

An option for reserves by assault boat could also liven up things in RB. As it stands now, the river is basically empty terrain, a secure flank for the Germans, it would provide a nice thorn in the side, if a company came across in boats behind the German lines. (Completely ahistorical I think, but would liven up the campaign game.)

 

[Bob Miller]

Degrees of depletion on the purchased RG companies is one area that could be applied to RB with no major let alone minor distruptions. Tank recovery and repair would be another rule that, well, just makes sense adding.

 

[Bryan Holtby]

So,
obviously time will tell, and the two have a very different feel. But VOTG has been around long enough for you old timers to have pushed some cardboard past the Univermag....

which is better?

Decisions with reasons please.

As was decided in the last thread on this topic, it will take a couple years before a decision is reached on which is 'better'.

Its really hard to compare the two when the only things in common between the two modules are the combatants and the name of the city.

Apples vs Oranges I say.

 

[CraigBenn]

As was decided in the last thread on this topic, it will take a couple years before a decision is reached on which is 'better'.

Its really hard to compare the two when the only things in common between the two modules are the combatants and the name of the city.

Apples vs Oranges I say.

Well, to put it another way...which do you think is more fun for you personally to play? If your opponent offered you the choice tomorrow, which one would you pick ?

I'm particularly interested in the opinions of the players who play Red Barricades and pretty much nothing else - or at least no other CG's...

Do they still feel that RB is the one, the only, undisputed heavy weight CG in the world (even though you never complete the 900+ CG dates in the large one), that can never be beat. Or does this refine and improve the RB experience in a way that previous CG's have not?

And having read the parts of Chapter O in VOTG, I would love to fight in the shattered factory zone of RB. It amazes me that there was that level of rules sophistication all the way back in 1992 or whenever.

 

[Bryan Holtby]

If I was offered the choice, I would choose VoTG, simply because I have played dozens of RB CG games, not many surprises left really. Now dont take that to mean I wouldnt play RB again, I would in a heartbeat.

RB is the original, it set the bar that all others will be measured against. Tactics have been refined over the last 15+ years that RB has been in use. Even so much as 5 years ago tactics were still being developed, I believe the "no pass option" or "ELR strategy" is relatively new.

If you break it down and put it under the microscope, I think you would find RB lacking. Its a great game.....for the German, not as much fun for the Russian.

And dont take that to mean I wouldnt play the Russians either, I enjoy playing the Russians too. They just arent as much 'fun', for me at least.

One of the biggest things to consider is that when RB was released, there was a lack of ASL material. It was an entirely new idea and an entirely new map.....more importantly a REAL map. Now there is almost an overabundance of ASL material, multiple scenario pack TPP's out there, two other TPP publish 'historical studies'. We are inundated with new material, no longer will ppl play the same HASL module over and over as there is just too much new stuff coming out. Back when RB was around, the only new stuff we could count on was the Annual and pray AH (followed soon by MMP) put out a module.

Will VotG stand the test of time? Its really, really hard to tell, but me thinks the deck is stacked against it, and its got nothing to do with the quality of VotG either.

 

[Will Fleming]

FWIW, the most fun I had was playing the Russians in RB.

 

[Tater]

So,
obviously time will tell, and the two have a very different feel. But VOTG has been around long enough for you old timers to have pushed some cardboard past the Univermag....

which is better?

Decisions with reasons please.

You got to be kidding...it will be years before such a comparison could even be attempted. Any such comparison made at this point is going to be a study in ignorance.

 

[Tater]

Well, to put it another way...which do you think is more fun for you personally to play? If your opponent offered you the choice tomorrow, which one would you pick ?

Considering how long RB has been around...I suspect most would want to go VotG since it is new. IOW, your question is really inadequate and unrealistic.

It is going to take some time and a lot of playing before such questions can be honestly answered.

 

[Honza]

I think it is going to depend upon how balanced the VotG CGs prove themselves to be.
If they can be played over and over again without one side or the other having a significant advantage then I think VotG will become another classic.
Balance in the CGs is very important because it gives both players a decent challenge and therefore the excitement and drama is that much more meaningful.

I think VotG CG's have got the dynamic and design qualities to be great, it is just a matter of how balanced they are now. DO THEY PROVIDE THE GREAT EXCITEMENT AND CHALLENGE TO BOTH PLAYERS TIME AND TIME AGAIN!!?

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

RB is the "standard"....

But I know "VOtGs" does RAISE the standard....:clown:

What a "coupla months" does to war.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

As was decided in the last thread on this topic, it will take a couple years before a decision is reached on which is 'better'.

Not if a 2nd Edition of RB is in the works with the upgrades added...

I wonder if that has been discussed in the halls of power?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

One of the biggest things to consider is that when RB was released, there was a lack of ASL material. It was an entirely new idea and an entirely new map.....more importantly a REAL map. Now there is almost an overabundance of ASL material, multiple scenario pack TPP's out there, two other TPP publish 'historical studies'. We are inundated with new material, no longer will ppl play the same HASL module over and over as there is just too much new stuff coming out. Back when RB was around, the only new stuff we could count on was the Annual and pray AH (followed soon by MMP) put out a module.

Will VotG stand the test of time? Its really, really hard to tell, but me thinks the deck is stacked against it, and its got nothing to do with the quality of VotG either.

I think these are salient points, which I've come to expect from Bryan. There will always be more fondness for a first car or girlfriend or housepet, it is the same for anything. The system is getting to the age, though, that RB is no longer the first HASL for many - I'm looking forward to the ASLSK HASL that has been talked about. Will be neat to see the comments of the "simple set". Sort of like that scene in Band of Brothers where the paratroopers get to see a kid eat a chocolate bar for the first time.

 

[pward]

I think these are salient points, which I've come to expect from Bryan. There will always be more fondness for a first car or girlfriend or housepet, it is the same for anything. The system is getting to the age, though, that RB is no longer the first HASL for many - I'm looking forward to the ASLSK HASL that has been talked about. Will be neat to see the comments of the "simple set". Sort of like that scene in Band of Brothers where the paratroopers get to see a kid eat a chocolate bar for the first time.

Starter kit HASL = that first hit for free from the "candyman"...

Probably a really good idea.

 

[CraigBenn]

Considering how long RB has been around...I suspect most would want to go VotG since it is new. IOW, your question is really inadequate and unrealistic.

It is going to take some time and a lot of playing before such questions can be honestly answered.

Of course its too early to do a serious comparison, but there's plenty of room for idle speculation. Lighten up dude.