VotG Hex H36

[commissar1969]

Hello,

VotG H36 is a combination of Debris and Paved Road. Can a Gun set up Emplaced in it?

Thanks,

Commie

 

[cohort]

Per B3.43 a road covered by debris is treated as non-existent, so a gun could set up emplaced there.

 

[commissar1969]

Per B3.43 a road covered by debris is treated as non-existent, so a gun could set up emplaced there.

I don't know whether it matters, but it's actually Boulevard. It would be amazing to me if a Gun could set up Emplaced in it.

 

[Tom Morin]

Per B3.43 a road covered by debris is treated as non-existent, so a gun could set up emplaced there.

Correct.

Tom

 

[cohort]

H36 is just a paved road hex, not a City Square hex, because it does not contain an enlarged black center-dot.

 

[Eagle4ty]

I don't know whether it matters, but it's actually Boulevard. It would be amazing to me if a Gun could set up Emplaced in it.

As you noted, the Boulevard doesn't exist so how could it matter. It is a Debris hex until Cleared.

 

[Brian W]

I don't know whether it matters, but it's actually Boulevard.

The VASL map makes it look like a road, although that seems strange. I don't have the paper map with me; perhaps it shows the black dot?

 

[jrv]

The VASL map makes it look like a road, although that seems strange. I don't have the paper map with me; perhaps it shows the black dot?

View attachment 4590

It does not have a black dot. DD35, FF36, T39, P40, U33, & S43 also look like they should be black dots and are not. And they are all debris hexes. Coincidence?

JR

 

[Brian W]

Coincidence?

Actually, are they even roads underneath the debris? Maybe if cleared they are just OG?

T39 is really interesting--it's a non-Blvd hex that connects two Blvd hexes.

 

[jrv]

Actually, are they even roads underneath the debris? Maybe if cleared they are just OG?

In VotG debris can never be totally cleared. Because of this I suspect that the reason they are not Wide City Booulevards underneath is so that the WCB DRM is not cumulative.

JR

 

[Brian W]

I suspect that the reason they are not Wide City Booulevards underneath is so that the WCB DRM is not cumulative.

I would have thought you would want them to be cumulative--the debris doesn't change the fact that the surface is concrete, and lots of it, reflecting explosions rather than absorbing it, and causing lots of ricochets.

Again, no VotG rules/map handy; how are blvds and shellholes handled, meaning are they +1 or +0 TEM? There's an instance where I would have thought the ground would be so broken up as to lose the effects of all that concrete.

 

[jrv]

I would have thought you would want them to be cumulative--the debris doesn't change the fact that the surface is concrete, and lots of it, reflecting explosions rather than absorbing it, and causing lots of ricochets.

Again, no VotG rules/map handy; how are blvds and shellholes handled, meaning are they +1 or +0 TEM? There's an instance where I would have thought the ground would be so broken up as to lose the effects of all that concrete.

WCB DRM are cumulative with other terrain [B7.3]. However per B2.1, "the in-hex terrain ... is considered no longer to exist at all" on shellhole placement. I don't know how to resolve that. There's no discussion in VotG10 nor in the Q&A. I think I would take them as cumulative just because someone went to the effort of making it clear that debris hexes are not WCB while drawing the black dots on the shellholes, and because the shellholes are not placed but are present. That might mean that newly-placed shellholes eliminate the WCB, but drawn ones do not. It's also not clear if placing a shellhole eliminates roads or merely makes them more complicated in standard ASL.

JR

 

[jrv]

Do shellholes eliminate sewer entrances? If so, what happens to units currently in that sewer location?

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

In VotG debris can never be totally cleared. Because of this I suspect that the reason they are not Wide City Booulevards underneath is so that the WCB DRM is not cumulative.

JR

This makes sense as all Boulevard hexes are denoted by the large center dot as well as you have stated

 

[Eagle4ty]

Do shellholes eliminate sewer entrances? If so, what happens to units currently in that sewer location?

JR

Let's see, are Sewers entrance/exits (Manholes) terrain features? Yup B8.1 and as per B2.1 if a Shellhole is placed it is considered to no longer exist at all. Therefore the Manhole is no longer there, however it does not state that the Sewer itself no longer exists as that's not the inherent terrain. If units were in the Sewer they would be unable to emerge and must continue on to another Manhole Location to be able to do so (somewhat akin to being Lost or continuing Sewer Movement otherwise). Anyway, that 's my take on it.:nod:

 

[Brian W]

Do shellholes eliminate sewer entrances? If so, what happens to units currently in that sewer location?

B8.5 covers what happens when a Manhole location is destroyed, but doesn't list shellholes as a reason for manhole destruction, so I'd say shellholes do not affect manholes. The sewer location is unaffected.

 

[Brian W]

Let's see, are Sewers entrance/exits (Manholes) terrain features? Yup B8.1 and as per B2.1 if a Shellhole is placed it is considered to no longer exist at all. Therefore the Manhole is no longer there, . . .

Note B8.5 and my post above. Additionally, the VotG map has manhole locations in shellhole locations (indeed, they are all over the place), so the designers of that product believed that co-existence was possible.

Edit: see the picture attached in post #7 above.

 

[Eagle4ty]

B8.5 covers what happens when a Manhole location is destroyed, but doesn't list shellholes as a reason for manhole destruction, so I'd say shellholes do not affect manholes. The sewer location is unaffected.

However. if the Shellhole is placed during play, and that's what I gathered jrv's response was directed at, B2.1 is pretty specific in its statement it destroys all inherent terrain features, even roads, which appear with on-map printed shellholes (though I'm not sure if printed shellholes exist in other terrain or not; I think destroyed rail-cars, but no map handy at the moment). I agree though, Shellholes created during play or printed on-map would not destroy the Sewer Location.

[Edit]: As per the reasons for destruction of Manholes seemingly omitting Shellholes; Wasn't the last sentence of B2.1 added or clarified rather recently (well at least after B8.5 was initially written)?

 

[jrv]

B2.1 is pretty specific in its statement it destroys all inherent terrain features, even roads

Just to be clear here, the "in-hex terrain ... is considered to no longer exist at all." "In-hex terrain" is a formula that is used occasionally and seems to be in contrast to hexside terrain, but it is not (to my knowledge) defined. It's not clear that a road is "terrain" nor that it is "in-hex terrain." It's a possibility.

Further the shellholes rules say, "Shellholes occur only IN a depression--not at its Crest level." Personally I would have called a gully "in-hex terrain" but it's clear the shellholes rules don't. That leaves me asking what things I call "in-hex terrain" no longer exist and what still exist. It seems likely that hills continue to exist, although they would also seem to be in-hex terrain to me. Elevated roads? Bridges? To me it looks as though "in-hex terrain" eliminated in B2.1 means any of the kinds of terrain mentioned in B2.1, i.e. orchard, brush or grainfield. Bridges would be attacked normally, and roads, elevated roads, railroads, wide city boulevards, sewer entrances, hills & depressions continue to exist. Just a guess however.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

Just to be clear here, the "in-hex terrain ... is considered to no longer exist at all." "In-hex terrain" is a formula that is used occasionally and seems to be in contrast to hexside terrain, but it is not (to my knowledge) defined. It's not clear that a road is "terrain" nor that it is "in-hex terrain." It's a possibility.

Further the shellholes rules say, "Shellholes occur only IN a depression--not at its Crest level." Personally I would have called a gully "in-hex terrain" but it's clear the shellholes rules don't. That leaves me asking what things I call "in-hex terrain" no longer exist and what still exist. It seems likely that hills continue to exist, although they would also seem to be in-hex terrain to me. Elevated roads? Bridges? To me it looks as though "in-hex terrain" eliminated in B2.1 means any of the kinds of terrain mentioned in B2.1, i.e. orchard, brush or grainfield. Bridges would be attacked normally, and roads, elevated roads, railroads, wide city boulevards, sewer entrances, hills & depressions continue to exist. Just a guess however.

JR

Hmmm!Reasonable assumption (gotta be wrong).:nod: