janusz.maxe
Member
What was the German SW to squad ratio at CG end?
VotG CG IV: The North Shore Open
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Bob Miller
Senior Member
Yes, that would be interesting to note.
gamesmeister
Member
This whole thread has been epic - I am so impressed!!
=FC=Gorgon
Minister of Propaganda
Hey folks,
We're getting together this week. At minimum, there we'll compare notes and get the stats y'all are looking for. I'd love to be part of a larger write up of the whole campaign. We'll definitely talk about that too. At minimum, it'll great fodder for the forums.
Thanks again to the readers. The great responses inspire to add more to the thread.
M
We're getting together this week. At minimum, there we'll compare notes and get the stats y'all are looking for. I'd love to be part of a larger write up of the whole campaign. We'll definitely talk about that too. At minimum, it'll great fodder for the forums.
Thanks again to the readers. The great responses inspire to add more to the thread.
M
Didn't your river reinforcements land behind the shrinking Russian perimeter, rather than storm the ferry landings that I had already captured? I don't remember shooting up too many boats, either, odds were just too poor and there were too many closer targets.
Then again, it was 8 years and 2 children ago....
See ya,
Mike
View attachment 31424View attachment 31425View attachment 31426View attachment 31427View attachment 31428View attachment 31429
So here's the sequence of events that led to our downfall. Last night was the 1st Thurs night in a year and a half we did not play VotG CG IV!
R4-R6
We landed and SMG company in turn 4. 2/3 in the north and 1/3 to reinforce the south. My original plan was to land 100% in the north but there did not seem to be a safe way to do that without exposing the unit to either more German fire or keeping a second wave in the water longer or come in a turn later. In turn 4 my script X’d out the new 50mm mortar. The barrage came down accurately on row Z41 revealing dummies in Z37. In Z39 the 81mm mortar crew took and passed an NMC and Z43.2 pinned on a 1MC. German star shells were weak in the north (3 total, if anything they blinded the defenders and very strong and bright in the south (6 total: EE49, EE50, KK46, EE44, FF49).
The boats all landed safely except the one with Commissar Sullichenko in the north (the only leader for that sector). He got tagged with a CH in MM17 by an 81mm mortar in DD26.2. An earlier shot from that mortar pinned a 4-6-7/MMG in LL19 which helped cover the landing. In the north FF43 (4-6-8/HMG/4-6-8/MMG/9-1) blasted a 6-2-8 for a 1MC which he passed with a cold German SAN but kept rof. By the end of the MGs getting rate all that was left was a broken 2-2-7. The trade off was another warm Soviet SAN pinning a 4-6-7 in LL13 followed by cold German and Soviet SAN checks. Brian placed an FL from HH39 where he had an 8-3-8/MMG/8-1 in foxholes but no one crossed the line. DF had 2 events. The 81mm mortar in Y46.2 went to low ammo and HH39 fired up cloakers in II39 to break a 4-4-7 and reveal a 7-0. So they did not get a chance to jump the 8-3-8. I did get to ambush and kill a 4-6-7 in LL16. Brian advised breaking that squad to run away b/c little did we know the infantry deficiency the Germans were under.
In G4 the Germans placed 9 star shells, all but 2 in the south (MM20, MM14, II42, GG43, CC48, CC49, FF45, KK47, DD46). In prep fire the 75mm INF gun in KK16 malf’d on a PBF shot at LL16 and the 81mm mortar in DD26.6 went low ammo. Up north FF45 scored a 2MC on CC46 to break and ELR a 4-4-7. German movement consisted of pushing leaders to JJ29 to get more troops in motion and moving past the 6-2-8 in FF50. Mike pinned a 4-6-7 in EE50 and broke a 5-4-8 in GG49 (9-1/4-6-8 passed) with FPF. I D1F’d and laid a FL from HH44 (4-4-7/LMG) which pinned the 8-1 as he left HH39 but the 8-3-8/MMG got out. Our OBA broke the 8-1 who died of a mortal wound in Z43.1 and broke/ELR’d the 4-6-8. That was it for us but the Germans had advancing fire. DD32.2 fired at II42 for NE breaking the HMG by the 3rd shot. Flames turned to blaze in DD38 causing the 4-6-8/8-1 there to break and rout out. These were decent events for the Soviets but they did not impact the front line where the fighting was and where we were feeling pressure. The Germans actually initiated CC in GG49 (became a HtH melee 4-4-7 vs 9-1/4-6-8) and II38 (8-3-8 jumped the broken 4-2-6/7-0 killing them both).
I counted on turn 5 to be the turn the Soviets pushed the attack home. We had about 16 squads on board and 1.5 still in the box (Engineers we were saving). Unfortunately, we could not get enough men forward cloaked to apply enough pressure to successfully kill the German defenders. I was not thinking defensively at this point. Mike tended to be more conservative than me (I think) and his force was already down to next to nothing. Our OBA moved forward again drifting one hex to the south (which was good in helping obscure fire from V46.2).
The Germans actually rolled poorly for starshells only getting about a 50% success rate. In the past this boded well for us. Starshells popped up in LL22, LL38, GG40, FF45, GG48, EE42, and EE35. My first move was a 3-2-8 moving to jump the 8-1 I pinned in G4. I roll 6,6 on a 1MC from DD32.2. A cloaker in HH44 goes to GG45. They break and ELR on a 2MC PBF shot. Another cloaker AMs to HH45 and the 20/8FP flat shot had no effect. I AM’d another cloaker to HH46. GG46 used sustained fire getting 2,2 for a 2MC so they lost cloaking. Mike placed a DC on the StuG in bypass of FF50.
DF was brutal. KK16 crew shot L16 rolling 1,1 for an NMC that broke the 5-2-7 that should eaten the guys lunch. From HH47 the StuG hit and got rate on HH46. This caused a cold Soviet SAN and a Hot German SAN that broke a 4-4-7 in LL40. The rate shot malf’d the MA. KK38 fired at LL39 causing Hot German and Soviet SANs. Ours removed dummies in HH10, theirs broke the 4-2-6 in LL39. II38 fired up LL40 to CR that squad on an NMC (cold Soviet SAN check). In AF Mike’s DC blew the StuG to smithereens. His placement DR was 3,1 (aerial rear) and he created a burning wreck. In CC Mike killed the 4-6-8/9-1 but his 4-4-7 died as well. I ambushed an 8-0/4-6-7 in LL20 and then rolled 6,6 on the attack allowing them to escape. Absolutely brutal. By now I realize the attack has culminated but it’s already too late. Of all of the units I pushed up the slope into the HH hexrow one squad actually made it to close combat. In GG46 I decide to be aggressive and go 1:4 HtH after I ambush the 9-1 and 2x4-6-8s but fail. Brian hosed the attack back so that became a HtH melee.
German turn 5 did not have a lot of shooting. The Germans used the turn to move units into position. It was gusty again and NVR became 5 hexes. Mike P X’d out the 75mm INF gun in LL16 but fixed the HMG in DD32.2. I rallied the 4-4-7/LMG in II43. I tried to toss up some light but did not succeed. Our OBA had no effects and the only result I see form the turn is a Hot German SNA that CR’d the 4-2-6 in LL40. Mike P really saw the opportunity to move southward along the riverside toward the landings and he laid up the Germans for the big win by doing this in turn 5. In CC my 4-4-7 is killed in GG46 with nothing to show for it. I went aggressive on the attack and should’ve gone conservative but my dice stunk anyway.
In R6 I see the wolves circling. I know I can hold off Brian’s frontal attack but I am not optimistic I can stop any infiltration toward the landings. Gusts continued. I used both of our self-rallies to try and wake up one of the 3 brokies at the landing on row LL but none succeed. Our OBA goes to row V on target but has no effect on any German reserves on the ground levels of 2L buildings. I took an 8FP +2 shot at KK22 for a 2MC but they passed with a 3DR. We pin HH48. That was our PF. The German lit up GG20, GG43, GG47, LL23, and KK41 with starshells. In the south during the movement phase I basically fold my units on line in the II hexrow where they are in blind terrain to German units above but I was unable to move anyone back to rows KK or LL without exposing them to fire. In the northern landing I was still trying to exploit to create some space for the next scenario.
Brian fired up Mike’s 6-2-8 in FF50 and he HoBs on a NMC to create a hero (back to back snake-eyes). DF was still costly to us. The 9-2 directing the 4-6-7/HMG in DD32.2 went on a 5 shot rate of fire tear. It eliminated a 4-4-7 after ELRing them down and although I BH’d a 5-2-7 yo 6-2-8 this unit became a 3-2-8 on a 1,1 DR resulting in a K/2.
During CC I succeed in ambushing and killing the 2-2-8 in JJ15. I jumped KK22 but Mike P rolls 1,1 to kill my 5-2-7 and withdraw to LL21. The southern flank of the new landing was now in serious jeopardy.
In G6 the NVR dropped back to 4 hexes. The Germans attempted self rally in HH16 failed and CR’d the 4-6-7 with a 6,6 DR. In II45 my 9-0 Commissar CR’s a 4-2-6 and a 2-2-6 for lacking adequate Communist fervor but he rallied the 4-4-7/LMG. The Germans did not prep fire. I placed starshells in JJ43 and II48 which light up our entire back field. It is not merely a matter of placing enough residual and getting an effect from it. A 4-6-7 moving to EE49 CR’d on booby traps from a PTC from Mike’s 6-2-8. A 9-1/5-4-8 moved next through the 1 FP resid in EE49 for NE, he SFF’d the 6-2-8 for good measure but this was also NE. Finally, Mike went for the FPF but hosed it by rolling 6,5.
In the northern sector the first mover was a 4-6-7 shot from JJ19 by a 5-2-7/Ger MMG who laid an FL down to LL20. The 4-6-7 passed an NMC and German SAN check for using a captured MMG at night was cold. A second 4-6-7 ran thru the FL and took a PTC that they passed but caused a warm Soviet SAN that wounded a 9-1. Further south the 8-3-8/MMG moved to Kk41. My 5-2-7/LMG in II42 fired for no effect and broke the LMG. A 4-4-7/LMG in II43 then had to cover move and caused an NMC which Brian passed with a 3DR. The next mover also got by unscathed (a 4-6-8/HMG in JJ36 moving to JJ37 shot by a 4-4-7 in JJ43. They continued to JJ40 and took a 2FP -1 which eventually broke them, 5-4-8/DC in FF43 AM’d to HH43 having passed a PTC. The second 5-4-8/DC in FF43 moved more aggressively to HH42 and passed a 1MC. Brian then DT’d a 4-6-8/LMG to II41 and my 5-2-7 shot him and HH41 with spraying fire to spread the resid around. The squad passed the PTC. The hero/FT ran into HH41 and took a 1FP -3 shot from the resid but I rolled 6,5 for NE. The final German moves did not get fired up. These included: GG40 8-3-8/8-1 to HH40, GG46 8-1/4-6-8/MMG to GG45, FF39 5-4-8/HMG to JJ39, and FF39 wd’d 8-0 to HH39. Mike P moved his stacks south along the river.
At this point it felt like we’d survive the day if the scenario ended right now. The OBA did nothing in DF, all our squads had SFF’d or had otherwise blown their wad at eligible targets. German AF was negligible. The FT shot caused an NMC on II42 which they passed (Brian narrowly missed Xing it out). I routed KK17 to KK16 and Mike P grabbed both JJ16 and KK17 in the advance phase. Brian jumped FF50, LL42, and II42. My broken 4-4-7 in LL42 died easily. In II42 my 5-2-7 ambushed Brian’s 5-4-8 and CR’d them. Mike S ambushed the guys who jumped his broken 6-2-8 so they were able to withdraw east.
I rolled a 2 to end the scenario and we were psyched at that. We decided to take a quick look at interdiction and realized it was really close. The Germans had to commit units to interdiction too so it made a difference. The HMG in DD32.2 helped. As I mentioned earlier, we attempted to rubble that hex knowing the impact it would have on interdiction.
My moving the 5-2-7s forward who landed in the south was really the fatal move of the game though. If I played more conservatively and had not done that I do not believe Mike P could have gotten close enough for his 8-3-8/MMG to make it to LL42. The 9-0 could have rallied the 4-4-7 as well. Without that the Germans could not have interdicted enough hexes to win. But, I was the man on the spot and I made the wrong call. It just did not feel like the right time to be cautious.
That leads to some speculation as to what may have occurred had we played a scenario on the 24th. Our plan was to attack. This would've dropped the German ELR on the 24th and 25 unless they had chose to go idle and it would've allowed us to make a night attack. Mike and Brian both say they planned on attacked. We would undoubtedly been pretty hurting in a day fight on the 24th. We had 17 squads remaining in our OoB and would probably have gotten 12 more from a rifle company. This would've been against 52 German squads (more than half of whom were elite). I'll provide the actual data later but that gives you a rough idea of the force ratio.
So here's the sequence of events that led to our downfall. Last night was the 1st Thurs night in a year and a half we did not play VotG CG IV!
R4-R6
We landed and SMG company in turn 4. 2/3 in the north and 1/3 to reinforce the south. My original plan was to land 100% in the north but there did not seem to be a safe way to do that without exposing the unit to either more German fire or keeping a second wave in the water longer or come in a turn later. In turn 4 my script X’d out the new 50mm mortar. The barrage came down accurately on row Z41 revealing dummies in Z37. In Z39 the 81mm mortar crew took and passed an NMC and Z43.2 pinned on a 1MC. German star shells were weak in the north (3 total, if anything they blinded the defenders and very strong and bright in the south (6 total: EE49, EE50, KK46, EE44, FF49).
The boats all landed safely except the one with Commissar Sullichenko in the north (the only leader for that sector). He got tagged with a CH in MM17 by an 81mm mortar in DD26.2. An earlier shot from that mortar pinned a 4-6-7/MMG in LL19 which helped cover the landing. In the north FF43 (4-6-8/HMG/4-6-8/MMG/9-1) blasted a 6-2-8 for a 1MC which he passed with a cold German SAN but kept rof. By the end of the MGs getting rate all that was left was a broken 2-2-7. The trade off was another warm Soviet SAN pinning a 4-6-7 in LL13 followed by cold German and Soviet SAN checks. Brian placed an FL from HH39 where he had an 8-3-8/MMG/8-1 in foxholes but no one crossed the line. DF had 2 events. The 81mm mortar in Y46.2 went to low ammo and HH39 fired up cloakers in II39 to break a 4-4-7 and reveal a 7-0. So they did not get a chance to jump the 8-3-8. I did get to ambush and kill a 4-6-7 in LL16. Brian advised breaking that squad to run away b/c little did we know the infantry deficiency the Germans were under.
In G4 the Germans placed 9 star shells, all but 2 in the south (MM20, MM14, II42, GG43, CC48, CC49, FF45, KK47, DD46). In prep fire the 75mm INF gun in KK16 malf’d on a PBF shot at LL16 and the 81mm mortar in DD26.6 went low ammo. Up north FF45 scored a 2MC on CC46 to break and ELR a 4-4-7. German movement consisted of pushing leaders to JJ29 to get more troops in motion and moving past the 6-2-8 in FF50. Mike pinned a 4-6-7 in EE50 and broke a 5-4-8 in GG49 (9-1/4-6-8 passed) with FPF. I D1F’d and laid a FL from HH44 (4-4-7/LMG) which pinned the 8-1 as he left HH39 but the 8-3-8/MMG got out. Our OBA broke the 8-1 who died of a mortal wound in Z43.1 and broke/ELR’d the 4-6-8. That was it for us but the Germans had advancing fire. DD32.2 fired at II42 for NE breaking the HMG by the 3rd shot. Flames turned to blaze in DD38 causing the 4-6-8/8-1 there to break and rout out. These were decent events for the Soviets but they did not impact the front line where the fighting was and where we were feeling pressure. The Germans actually initiated CC in GG49 (became a HtH melee 4-4-7 vs 9-1/4-6-8) and II38 (8-3-8 jumped the broken 4-2-6/7-0 killing them both).
I counted on turn 5 to be the turn the Soviets pushed the attack home. We had about 16 squads on board and 1.5 still in the box (Engineers we were saving). Unfortunately, we could not get enough men forward cloaked to apply enough pressure to successfully kill the German defenders. I was not thinking defensively at this point. Mike tended to be more conservative than me (I think) and his force was already down to next to nothing. Our OBA moved forward again drifting one hex to the south (which was good in helping obscure fire from V46.2).
The Germans actually rolled poorly for starshells only getting about a 50% success rate. In the past this boded well for us. Starshells popped up in LL22, LL38, GG40, FF45, GG48, EE42, and EE35. My first move was a 3-2-8 moving to jump the 8-1 I pinned in G4. I roll 6,6 on a 1MC from DD32.2. A cloaker in HH44 goes to GG45. They break and ELR on a 2MC PBF shot. Another cloaker AMs to HH45 and the 20/8FP flat shot had no effect. I AM’d another cloaker to HH46. GG46 used sustained fire getting 2,2 for a 2MC so they lost cloaking. Mike placed a DC on the StuG in bypass of FF50.
DF was brutal. KK16 crew shot L16 rolling 1,1 for an NMC that broke the 5-2-7 that should eaten the guys lunch. From HH47 the StuG hit and got rate on HH46. This caused a cold Soviet SAN and a Hot German SAN that broke a 4-4-7 in LL40. The rate shot malf’d the MA. KK38 fired at LL39 causing Hot German and Soviet SANs. Ours removed dummies in HH10, theirs broke the 4-2-6 in LL39. II38 fired up LL40 to CR that squad on an NMC (cold Soviet SAN check). In AF Mike’s DC blew the StuG to smithereens. His placement DR was 3,1 (aerial rear) and he created a burning wreck. In CC Mike killed the 4-6-8/9-1 but his 4-4-7 died as well. I ambushed an 8-0/4-6-7 in LL20 and then rolled 6,6 on the attack allowing them to escape. Absolutely brutal. By now I realize the attack has culminated but it’s already too late. Of all of the units I pushed up the slope into the HH hexrow one squad actually made it to close combat. In GG46 I decide to be aggressive and go 1:4 HtH after I ambush the 9-1 and 2x4-6-8s but fail. Brian hosed the attack back so that became a HtH melee.
German turn 5 did not have a lot of shooting. The Germans used the turn to move units into position. It was gusty again and NVR became 5 hexes. Mike P X’d out the 75mm INF gun in LL16 but fixed the HMG in DD32.2. I rallied the 4-4-7/LMG in II43. I tried to toss up some light but did not succeed. Our OBA had no effects and the only result I see form the turn is a Hot German SNA that CR’d the 4-2-6 in LL40. Mike P really saw the opportunity to move southward along the riverside toward the landings and he laid up the Germans for the big win by doing this in turn 5. In CC my 4-4-7 is killed in GG46 with nothing to show for it. I went aggressive on the attack and should’ve gone conservative but my dice stunk anyway.
In R6 I see the wolves circling. I know I can hold off Brian’s frontal attack but I am not optimistic I can stop any infiltration toward the landings. Gusts continued. I used both of our self-rallies to try and wake up one of the 3 brokies at the landing on row LL but none succeed. Our OBA goes to row V on target but has no effect on any German reserves on the ground levels of 2L buildings. I took an 8FP +2 shot at KK22 for a 2MC but they passed with a 3DR. We pin HH48. That was our PF. The German lit up GG20, GG43, GG47, LL23, and KK41 with starshells. In the south during the movement phase I basically fold my units on line in the II hexrow where they are in blind terrain to German units above but I was unable to move anyone back to rows KK or LL without exposing them to fire. In the northern landing I was still trying to exploit to create some space for the next scenario.
Brian fired up Mike’s 6-2-8 in FF50 and he HoBs on a NMC to create a hero (back to back snake-eyes). DF was still costly to us. The 9-2 directing the 4-6-7/HMG in DD32.2 went on a 5 shot rate of fire tear. It eliminated a 4-4-7 after ELRing them down and although I BH’d a 5-2-7 yo 6-2-8 this unit became a 3-2-8 on a 1,1 DR resulting in a K/2.
During CC I succeed in ambushing and killing the 2-2-8 in JJ15. I jumped KK22 but Mike P rolls 1,1 to kill my 5-2-7 and withdraw to LL21. The southern flank of the new landing was now in serious jeopardy.
In G6 the NVR dropped back to 4 hexes. The Germans attempted self rally in HH16 failed and CR’d the 4-6-7 with a 6,6 DR. In II45 my 9-0 Commissar CR’s a 4-2-6 and a 2-2-6 for lacking adequate Communist fervor but he rallied the 4-4-7/LMG. The Germans did not prep fire. I placed starshells in JJ43 and II48 which light up our entire back field. It is not merely a matter of placing enough residual and getting an effect from it. A 4-6-7 moving to EE49 CR’d on booby traps from a PTC from Mike’s 6-2-8. A 9-1/5-4-8 moved next through the 1 FP resid in EE49 for NE, he SFF’d the 6-2-8 for good measure but this was also NE. Finally, Mike went for the FPF but hosed it by rolling 6,5.
In the northern sector the first mover was a 4-6-7 shot from JJ19 by a 5-2-7/Ger MMG who laid an FL down to LL20. The 4-6-7 passed an NMC and German SAN check for using a captured MMG at night was cold. A second 4-6-7 ran thru the FL and took a PTC that they passed but caused a warm Soviet SAN that wounded a 9-1. Further south the 8-3-8/MMG moved to Kk41. My 5-2-7/LMG in II42 fired for no effect and broke the LMG. A 4-4-7/LMG in II43 then had to cover move and caused an NMC which Brian passed with a 3DR. The next mover also got by unscathed (a 4-6-8/HMG in JJ36 moving to JJ37 shot by a 4-4-7 in JJ43. They continued to JJ40 and took a 2FP -1 which eventually broke them, 5-4-8/DC in FF43 AM’d to HH43 having passed a PTC. The second 5-4-8/DC in FF43 moved more aggressively to HH42 and passed a 1MC. Brian then DT’d a 4-6-8/LMG to II41 and my 5-2-7 shot him and HH41 with spraying fire to spread the resid around. The squad passed the PTC. The hero/FT ran into HH41 and took a 1FP -3 shot from the resid but I rolled 6,5 for NE. The final German moves did not get fired up. These included: GG40 8-3-8/8-1 to HH40, GG46 8-1/4-6-8/MMG to GG45, FF39 5-4-8/HMG to JJ39, and FF39 wd’d 8-0 to HH39. Mike P moved his stacks south along the river.
At this point it felt like we’d survive the day if the scenario ended right now. The OBA did nothing in DF, all our squads had SFF’d or had otherwise blown their wad at eligible targets. German AF was negligible. The FT shot caused an NMC on II42 which they passed (Brian narrowly missed Xing it out). I routed KK17 to KK16 and Mike P grabbed both JJ16 and KK17 in the advance phase. Brian jumped FF50, LL42, and II42. My broken 4-4-7 in LL42 died easily. In II42 my 5-2-7 ambushed Brian’s 5-4-8 and CR’d them. Mike S ambushed the guys who jumped his broken 6-2-8 so they were able to withdraw east.
I rolled a 2 to end the scenario and we were psyched at that. We decided to take a quick look at interdiction and realized it was really close. The Germans had to commit units to interdiction too so it made a difference. The HMG in DD32.2 helped. As I mentioned earlier, we attempted to rubble that hex knowing the impact it would have on interdiction.
My moving the 5-2-7s forward who landed in the south was really the fatal move of the game though. If I played more conservatively and had not done that I do not believe Mike P could have gotten close enough for his 8-3-8/MMG to make it to LL42. The 9-0 could have rallied the 4-4-7 as well. Without that the Germans could not have interdicted enough hexes to win. But, I was the man on the spot and I made the wrong call. It just did not feel like the right time to be cautious.
That leads to some speculation as to what may have occurred had we played a scenario on the 24th. Our plan was to attack. This would've dropped the German ELR on the 24th and 25 unless they had chose to go idle and it would've allowed us to make a night attack. Mike and Brian both say they planned on attacked. We would undoubtedly been pretty hurting in a day fight on the 24th. We had 17 squads remaining in our OoB and would probably have gotten 12 more from a rifle company. This would've been against 52 German squads (more than half of whom were elite). I'll provide the actual data later but that gives you a rough idea of the force ratio.
DrDeath
Member
I think one of the most telling points (in hindsight) is the tale of the infantry reserves. The Germans took a thumping early on in this CG and were well behind the CVP curve. We were willing to make this trade early on in exchange for ground but as in RB the key to victory is to make sure you have enough boots on the ground at the end. The axis could not continue to lose manpower at the rate we did in the beginning. By 15 D we had essentially taken half the city from west to east but had lost about 3 companies of first line troops and a good deal of AFV's. While the Russian losses were about even they were comprised of about 2 companies of Conscript Militia and only about 1coy of mixed 1st line and elite squads.
Of these first 2 days there are several key notes. The first is Mike's attrocious dice while outfitting our RG's. If you could deplete 'em he did. This actually played out much later in the CG as we will see as it lent itself to the Russians believing we had more units available than we did. The second was a blunder of monumental proportions. At the start of this CG my schedule was very crowded and getting together to plan the purchases with Mike didn't work out. I gave him some suggestions but then left it up to him. We began the first scenario and I leaned over to him and asked "Did we get the Stukas?" to which he answered "No." I shrugged and figured we needed the CPP for better prospects and didn't really give it a second thought until Jim and Mike asked if we forgot our Air Support dr. When we answered negative you would've thought they just saw Santa's fat ass shimmying back up the chiminey after depositing a big bag of commie crap under the tree. It wasn't until the first Russian movement phase where everybody and his mother just realized they had someplace else they needed to be that I knew we just made our first tactical error. The ***** of it is: Mike really did buy the Stukas. Paid for em and everything. But for some forever to be unknown reason he thought he remembered that he didn't so we never used them. That was also around the time I first thought this was going to take a little longer than I first imagined. I asked my wife in April if it would be alright with her if I played a CG game 1 night a week through the summer. She said sure. The following April she pointed out to me that when I asked she assumed it was for LAST summer. Oh well. And don't let this come across as finger pointing at Mike either. It's just what happend. We also laughed about it that we were certainly keeping them on their toes with our unconventional purchases.
Of these first 2 days there are several key notes. The first is Mike's attrocious dice while outfitting our RG's. If you could deplete 'em he did. This actually played out much later in the CG as we will see as it lent itself to the Russians believing we had more units available than we did. The second was a blunder of monumental proportions. At the start of this CG my schedule was very crowded and getting together to plan the purchases with Mike didn't work out. I gave him some suggestions but then left it up to him. We began the first scenario and I leaned over to him and asked "Did we get the Stukas?" to which he answered "No." I shrugged and figured we needed the CPP for better prospects and didn't really give it a second thought until Jim and Mike asked if we forgot our Air Support dr. When we answered negative you would've thought they just saw Santa's fat ass shimmying back up the chiminey after depositing a big bag of commie crap under the tree. It wasn't until the first Russian movement phase where everybody and his mother just realized they had someplace else they needed to be that I knew we just made our first tactical error. The ***** of it is: Mike really did buy the Stukas. Paid for em and everything. But for some forever to be unknown reason he thought he remembered that he didn't so we never used them. That was also around the time I first thought this was going to take a little longer than I first imagined. I asked my wife in April if it would be alright with her if I played a CG game 1 night a week through the summer. She said sure. The following April she pointed out to me that when I asked she assumed it was for LAST summer. Oh well. And don't let this come across as finger pointing at Mike either. It's just what happend. We also laughed about it that we were certainly keeping them on their toes with our unconventional purchases.
=FC=Gorgon
Minister of Propaganda
LOL, D. I almost bust a gut when you told us that story a couple of weeks ago. I can still vividly remember the look on our faces when we realized the Germans did not have rotating Stukas (at least so we thought) on 14D. Off to the races is an understatement.
"Big picture" advice after playing this is that the Russians do have their game cut out for them. Like RB, if your PM is low, do not attempt it as the Russians. You will get your butt handed to you CG day after CG day. But that is what happened historically. You need to think strategically overall. You need to trade land for German corpses. This is not easy. I remember many a time which I *****ed to Jim that I just could not get that 2nd shot against a broken unit to CR or kill them. Causing real casualties against the Germans is really, really hard; but not impossible.
As a team, I would say both of us are 'seasoned'. Jim is definitely the better player than I and most of the plan was his. But I would say for the Russians to win CGIV, that side must be run by seasoned or better players. Or maybe players with a good historical background of Stalingrad. It is too easy to think in 'scenario mindset' and try to fight it out with the Germans. This is a mistake. The Russians need to stay put and use every dirty trick in the book. Use reverse slope, HIP, Set DC, mines, wire and the kitchen sink to slow down and kill Germans. DFF is your friend more than PrepF. Nothing else will work in the long run IMHO.
Also, keep pressure on the Germans. In our retrospect talk, Jim and I think we discovered our big strategic mistake. I forget the exact campaign dates, but we let the Germans get 2 idle days in a row. In hindsight, that was a huge mistake. We let them recoup and get more powerful. Since that day, we got pushed back real hard and did only minor damage to them. Rather, we should have attacked and kept them on the ropes. ELR means a lot less to the Russians than the Germans IMHO.
Well, I'm stepping off the soap box for now. I hope to study my own notes more to do a more informative post. I'm sure Jim, MikeP and Brian have more to chime in with too.
"Big picture" advice after playing this is that the Russians do have their game cut out for them. Like RB, if your PM is low, do not attempt it as the Russians. You will get your butt handed to you CG day after CG day. But that is what happened historically. You need to think strategically overall. You need to trade land for German corpses. This is not easy. I remember many a time which I *****ed to Jim that I just could not get that 2nd shot against a broken unit to CR or kill them. Causing real casualties against the Germans is really, really hard; but not impossible.
As a team, I would say both of us are 'seasoned'. Jim is definitely the better player than I and most of the plan was his. But I would say for the Russians to win CGIV, that side must be run by seasoned or better players. Or maybe players with a good historical background of Stalingrad. It is too easy to think in 'scenario mindset' and try to fight it out with the Germans. This is a mistake. The Russians need to stay put and use every dirty trick in the book. Use reverse slope, HIP, Set DC, mines, wire and the kitchen sink to slow down and kill Germans. DFF is your friend more than PrepF. Nothing else will work in the long run IMHO.
Also, keep pressure on the Germans. In our retrospect talk, Jim and I think we discovered our big strategic mistake. I forget the exact campaign dates, but we let the Germans get 2 idle days in a row. In hindsight, that was a huge mistake. We let them recoup and get more powerful. Since that day, we got pushed back real hard and did only minor damage to them. Rather, we should have attacked and kept them on the ropes. ELR means a lot less to the Russians than the Germans IMHO.
Well, I'm stepping off the soap box for now. I hope to study my own notes more to do a more informative post. I'm sure Jim, MikeP and Brian have more to chime in with too.
Bob Holmstrom
Senior Member
Rep to all you guys for one of the best AAR's ever. While i was pulling for the Russians to win, i figured on a German victory. It was nice to see the Russians make the Germans work hard for it.
Gunner Scott
Forum Guru
Yes, Great AAR, Bob Miller and I are gonna give this CG IV another go at the end of the Month. After playing Storming the Station, I got a few Ideas that might help the Russians gain victory, but they might have to give up some territory to do that. Will keep the Masses informed when we undertake another playing of VotG CG, so stay Tuned.
Scott
Scott
DrDeath
Member
Some review of the purchase sheets indicate that I'm guilty of a bit of a bit of projection while describing the first 2 days. While Mike's depletion rolls were not horrible early, knowing what they turned into later on had me remembering them all as being very bad. There were some depleted companies but we did not lose too many men to those rolls early on.
By the end of the 15N scenario there was a need to analyze and adjust our tactics. To this point we had tried to sustain a fairly even attack through the entire north south corridor and wait to see if a breakthrough occurred. Patiently aggressive would be the way I would describe it. There was a bit of a push along the northern board edge by this time but this was also the site of the Soviet Night Counteroffensive which effectively shoved this line back to the T/U hexrow. With the losses the Wermacht had sustained thus far we needed a breather and time to let some reinforements make their way to the front. By taking an Idle day here on 16D we were able to purchase units in Reserve for a reduced cost as well as have them to be set up on board the following day. We also decided to change our tactics a bit as well for the new offensive on 17D. We loaded up the Center section for russian bear and the offensive began anew. This focused assault bore fruit as we were able to push all the way through to the 2.5 level buildings and right to the riverside dropoff. This scenario going through 7 turns really aided the Germans as the Commies were forced to watch as we gathered stone locations like some perverse easter egg hunt. When this day ended we were left with an obsene pouch of a perimeter affectionately known as the ball sac. The CVP's continued to be about 1:1 at this point but the killer was the hit that the Germs took on their leadership. 2 9-2's and a 10-2 left us with a bit of a void at the top of the chain of command.
The Russians were not to be outdone however and quickly announced the 3rd straight Night Counteroffensive for 17N. This one got pretty scary and had the boys hiding in the dark afraid to even move. Jim being an artilleryman by trade brought down his second barrage of the CG and this one was creepy. While the OBA cleared units out from West to East it led the way for a vise like attack from both the North and South that cruched our ball sac like my mother in law could have only dreamed about. This one was what the Russians have wet dreams about. Over a company and a half of the Fatherlands finest dead along with 3, count 'em 3 10-2's. And I thought there was a void in leadership developing. This was a Black Hole. The ball sac had had a sex change operation and for the Germans it was back to the drawing board.:argh:
By the end of the 15N scenario there was a need to analyze and adjust our tactics. To this point we had tried to sustain a fairly even attack through the entire north south corridor and wait to see if a breakthrough occurred. Patiently aggressive would be the way I would describe it. There was a bit of a push along the northern board edge by this time but this was also the site of the Soviet Night Counteroffensive which effectively shoved this line back to the T/U hexrow. With the losses the Wermacht had sustained thus far we needed a breather and time to let some reinforements make their way to the front. By taking an Idle day here on 16D we were able to purchase units in Reserve for a reduced cost as well as have them to be set up on board the following day. We also decided to change our tactics a bit as well for the new offensive on 17D. We loaded up the Center section for russian bear and the offensive began anew. This focused assault bore fruit as we were able to push all the way through to the 2.5 level buildings and right to the riverside dropoff. This scenario going through 7 turns really aided the Germans as the Commies were forced to watch as we gathered stone locations like some perverse easter egg hunt. When this day ended we were left with an obsene pouch of a perimeter affectionately known as the ball sac. The CVP's continued to be about 1:1 at this point but the killer was the hit that the Germs took on their leadership. 2 9-2's and a 10-2 left us with a bit of a void at the top of the chain of command.
The Russians were not to be outdone however and quickly announced the 3rd straight Night Counteroffensive for 17N. This one got pretty scary and had the boys hiding in the dark afraid to even move. Jim being an artilleryman by trade brought down his second barrage of the CG and this one was creepy. While the OBA cleared units out from West to East it led the way for a vise like attack from both the North and South that cruched our ball sac like my mother in law could have only dreamed about. This one was what the Russians have wet dreams about. Over a company and a half of the Fatherlands finest dead along with 3, count 'em 3 10-2's. And I thought there was a void in leadership developing. This was a Black Hole. The ball sac had had a sex change operation and for the Germans it was back to the drawing board.:argh:
DrDeath
Member
Well this as a good a time as any to bring up a major league faux pas that occurred during the fiirst CG day. The refit phase between the day scenario and the night Counterattack to be specific. Somehow during the CPP refit, the fact that the CPP total the Germans were to receive that was to be halved was overlooked and we ended up with a full CPP allotment. Obviously there is no excuse to be made for this error and it was certainly unintentional. This mistake was caught by the Nazis during the 15D scenario and an immediate time-out was called. Everybody got a fresh beer and we attempted to see if this could be corrected in a fair manner without skqueing the entire CG. We all agreed that it could but we needed to decide how to pay back the 9-10 extra CPP without tilting the game one way or the other. The first step taken was to immediately remove the platoons the Axis had on the board during the 15D scenario as reserves. This accounted for almost half the number we needed to repay. Getting the remainder done was a little trickier. We were in the later stages of of the 15D scenario and almost certain to be facing another Night Assault. If the Germans were to repay the entire balance of the CPP's prior to the next scenario it would not necessariliy be the lack of points that would be an issue but the fact that the Russians would be aware that the Germans had no points to spend. We agreed that this much information would indeed be detrimental. The solution we came upon was that the Germans would repay the outstanding balance between the next 2 scenarios and thereby retain some semblence of a fog of war. Subtracting these CPP's before the 16D scenario obviously played a role in selecting an Idle chit that day as well.
Looking back on this whole incident in hindsight, I believe we succeeded in coming up with a fair and equitable solution to to what was an unintentional sticky predicament. If we go back and look at the purchases that were made prior to the 14N scenario the major portion of the spending by the Germans was for reserve units in the form of a rifle coy and 2 pltns. The Night attack on 14N failed to activate a single reserve unit which made me breath a bit easier as far as not having those purchases directly affect that scenario. With both the 15D and 15N scenarios not yielding big gains and having the "debt" repaid by the Idle day on the 16th I was satisfied that we were square and back on track by the 17th. As stated above, it should never have happened, but it did. I think however in the larger scheme of the CG as a whole, the effect of the "faux pas" was negligible. As Mike Pz said, "If nothing else, this is enough to keep this thread going for at least another 6 months." Let's hear what you would've done....
Looking back on this whole incident in hindsight, I believe we succeeded in coming up with a fair and equitable solution to to what was an unintentional sticky predicament. If we go back and look at the purchases that were made prior to the 14N scenario the major portion of the spending by the Germans was for reserve units in the form of a rifle coy and 2 pltns. The Night attack on 14N failed to activate a single reserve unit which made me breath a bit easier as far as not having those purchases directly affect that scenario. With both the 15D and 15N scenarios not yielding big gains and having the "debt" repaid by the Idle day on the 16th I was satisfied that we were square and back on track by the 17th. As stated above, it should never have happened, but it did. I think however in the larger scheme of the CG as a whole, the effect of the "faux pas" was negligible. As Mike Pz said, "If nothing else, this is enough to keep this thread going for at least another 6 months." Let's hear what you would've done....
Morbii
Elder Member
A) For the extreme case, I'd probably have suggested starting back on 14N (presuming everyone remembered the front line and what units they had), including purchases as the Russian strategy might have needed adjusting. This would have probably been the most fair, BUT it would have done a few things:
1) The Russians would have to rethink their strategy.
2) Because of the above, if the Russians didn't do so well, it's a second chance
3) Unfortunately, bad or good DR for depletion/leaders might have to be redone
B) Barring A, perhaps another good solution would have been to do what you did: remove enough reserves to remove the extra CPP. Rather than remove their spending the next day, charge 3 extra CPP for the Rifle coy for the NEXT scenario (as if they were purchased to be onboard since they had that advantage) and 3 extra CPP for both platoons (3 for each would probably be overkill and I can't see anyone spending that much to start a platoon on board).
I think it's very hard to say if your solution was fair, but it does look like you guys took the time to think it through and figure out a solution. If both sides were ok with it, it was probably ok, but, the first night attack is the Russian big bang. I think it's too difficult to say whether or not the solution was fair in the end - but at least you tried.
Maybe you should do the following: Issue a big "**** you" to the Russians by screaming A.2 at the top of your lungs OR conceed the victory to them :stirthepot:
DrDeath
Member
This was only briefly discussed. As we were several evenings into 15D when this came to light no one wanted to go backwards. The conversation was unanimously geared towards solving the problem.
DrDeath
Member
As I stated above, the majority of the CPP's from the refit in question were used as Reserves which did not play a part in the Russians "not doing so well". I believe they, just as we all were, were just getting their feet wet. By the time the 3rd Night Counterattack came around they had it down to a science.
Bob Miller
Senior Member
You guys did it right. Admitted the mistake and came up with a mutually acceptable solution. Paying more for the next Coy (to simulate on board set-up cost being paid prior) makes some sense. Plus maybe have the next few purchases depleted could have been done as well.
The above quote, how much faster were you guys doing the night scenarios later in the CG as opposed to the first one or two dates?
=FC=Gorgon
Minister of Propaganda
Definitely faster; mainly b/ everyone was used to night rules by that point.
Please don't invite your mother in law to ASL night. :nuts:
DrDeath
Member
This I disagree with. We were looking to even this back up and pulling the units off the board was an immediate subtraction off the German CPP total no matter how you slice it. We would've had enough CPP to put the Rifle Coy on the board in Reserve on 14N regardless so we are talking about the 2 pltns that were set up in Reserve and not activated. I will give you that they did get on board early but I would further argue that had the CPP's not had to have been deducted on the 16th they would've simply been purchased there instead. As there was little progress made on the 15th even with their presence and the 16th was an Idle day I contend that by the end of that day everything would have been similar and the entire debacle had little to no effect on the larger picture whatsover. I personally think we came up with as good a solution as was reasonable to both sides while still keeping the game playable and of course a f***ing blast.
DrDeath
Member
This I could probably be convinced of but I think I've already made my case that it all came out in the wash anyway.
The only issue with this is that we were only looking to get back to even, not looking for any kind of penalty. I'm just happy that I picked it up during 15D not during the next refit or not at all. By catching it when we did, at least removing the Reserve units brought the descrepency down to 5-6 CPP immediately. That represents only 1.5% of the total CPP's refitted by the Germans through the entire CG and then even they were deducted ASAP. If you think we got away with a CPP here consider that that would represent about 1/3 of 1% of the total. I'm not looking to make excuses here, simply to go through what was done so the that the big picture can be appreciated in context.