John Fedoriw
Member
Hi gents,
I have a question for the designer or someone who was involved in the playtest. The VC require the Germans to control -AND/OR- interdict all ferry landings at game end (control of the Rail Station & Rail Crossing reduce this amount by 1 each). IMO at first glance this appears to be a fairly tall order for the Ruskis. I think they have a good chance of preventing the Axis from controlling all ferry landings but preventing interdiction is another matter altogether. The Russians get OBA directed by an offboard observer later in the game. Its not a great caliber (70mm) especially in +3 TEM terrain, but it is OBA. I think it is not too likely to do much damage to the Germans so could the Russians simply husband his OBA, save it and then obscure the ferry landings with it at the very end of the game? Put a fire mission in the river and prevent interdiction in these hexes? Or on the interdictors themselves?
So my question is this...was that the designer's intent? This essentially forces the Axis to take all the ferry landing to ensure that the Allies cant do this? So realistically they must CONTROL as opposed to INTERDICT to win? If the Germans do no control the landings a wily Ruska will just maintain fire discipline with his OBA until the scenario end and then drop it for hinderance?
I was the defender in this and was planning on doing it to secure the win. Our game did not go RIGHT until turn 19, but ended on 18 with this looking like the way to go. Both I & my opponent felt this seemed like a kind of gamey way to win. However, like every other ASL player I know worth his salt, I was not too morally righteous to let that keep me from victory. I felt dirty at the game end but there was plenty of water in the Volga to get clean with. I had to wash twice though to get rid of the smell LOL.
Was this kind of defense planned for? Given the pedigree of the designer / play-testers involved I imagine it was. But as I said it felt weird. If it was the intention that the Germans SHOULD CONTROL all ferry landings why not just state that in the VC?
**
Anyway, here's some thoughts on this scenario from the Ruski's POV:
The VC require the Russians to keep the Germans away from the riverbank. Their initial forces are primarily conscripts and to make matter worse the constraints of their set up area is (IMO) very bad. The terrain is also extremely unfavorable for them due to their lousy MFs.
They have some advantages. They get A LOT of commissars as well as several NKVD strongpoints. IMO these strongpoints cannot really do much to stem the tide unless the German tsunami directly hits these breakwaters. I feel the Germans can simply bypass these. They are fairly stalwart on defense but offensively the troops inside them cannot do too much against the Axis (individually they don't consist of too many troops or too much firepower.). Also they are stuck "in situ" until turn 10. If the Germans push & bypass I think there is a good chance they will be behind these structures by then.
The Russian get some reinforcements later in the game & I feel with these they can probably stop the Germans from sweeping the riverbank clean. But I think they may have trouble keeping the Germans out of all those 2nd level buildings that look down on the river & the Germans have LOTS of MGs.
In our game I made buildings R5, Y18, Y20, BB16, BB26 & DD31 NKVD Strongpoints.
I placed a 76L ART in R5 (on the 2nd level - used some fortified buildings there). I felt I must have something substantial there to combat the STUG which were due to enter on the northeast of the board. 9th of January Square is an obvious spot to place a breakwater. An 82mm MTR went in X20 & BB27 & another 76L ART in DD32 on the 2nd level. AA guns were in AA mode in JJ29, JJ40 & II48. The idea was to use them as an AA screen when the 1st reinforcements entered. (They also covered the Specialist's House if the stukas started hitting it after the 2nd level units opened up.)(As a side note these AA guns later got lucky 2 of them knocking out 2 STUGs on subsequent critical hits!! WOWZAA!!!)
The 1st main line of resistance was along row K and the 76 INF guns were all placed along that hex row to stiffen the line. Tanks were spread throughout this defense and a smattering of conscripts were spread throughout the railroad (rows E, F & G). They were intended to slow down the first impetus of the Axis before retreating to row K. I felt the Stalingrad 1 Rail Station was really indefensible and merely placed a few squads from the penal battalion there. Several squads were hidden in building K9 to also slow down the northeast reinforcements at 9th of January Square. A HIP radio observer was in Y17...an offboard one later placed in OO32.
I would insert a vasl pic of my setup but apparently the file is too large...oh well...
The idea was to contest the Germans as much as possible and slowly yield ground until my southern reinforcements entered.
Being very leery of the stuka screen I held all the armor reinforcements off-board until turn 13. Then I felt they could enter unmolested by aircraft and help the defense then. The AA guns (at least II48) would hopefully help the infantry get to cover as they entered before the tanks as soon as they were available.
The Ruski also gets a 10-3 leader and other assorted goodies at that point in time (turn 13). Unfortunately with the low visibility that sets in then it seems to make them much less fearsome than if they could see well to direct their fire. So they were not too effective at killing stuff....but they did help plug holes. I was disappointed that they were not more effective at actually removing German counters from the board but they were still a big help. (Increasing the body count is the fun stuff though not just slowing the enemy down).
My opponent attacked cautiously (I feel maybe too cautiously) and made good progress up to row K were he was held up for 2 -3 turns. After the the K row defenses were overcome he spent a few turns mopping the area up. I think this was a mistake. I know 19 turns is a long game but still I felt that the Axis should push towards the Volga with all speed. He used his stukas to good effect to practically wipe out my at-start tanks (1 survived until after the stukas had left and it was later recalled for MA disablement). After overcoming this Line of Resistance he continued on until he got to Line of Resistance #2 (Y18, Y20, BB16, BB26 & DD31 NKVD Strongpoints) and later hex row Z in the south. Building Y18, Y20 & DD31 in particular seemed to really slow down the Axis ..they all remained Russian throughout the game. In the south the Germans got as far as hex row EE before we stopped. Notably the Russian sniper was very active in the south wounding the 10-2 and 9-2 officers. This really helped slow them down.
The turn 1 STUGs were held offboard for a turn or 2. Axis northern reinforcements entered on turn 6 & the southern ones on turn 5. The first group of Russian reinforcements came on turn 8 & immediately created Line of Resistance #3 from Z41 to Z48.
The northern wing swept across 9th of January Square area sustaining some losses (1 STUG, 3 HTs) but largely intact (the 76 ART malf'd on his 2nd or 3rd shot) essentially bypassing all units in Pavlov's House and near the Milk Factory. They later hit the riverbank in the north and swept down out eventually taking building BB16 and all ferry landing north of there.
However, when the light started failing (Turn 13) so did the impetus of the advance as the Russians started putting more bodies into the line. The last few turns almost became a Mexican stand off before the attack was called off on turn 18.
I think my set up and plan was OK but if I were to do it again I would NOT make Y18, Y20 or BB16 NKVD Strongpoints. Instead CC20, Z40 & Z44 would be (I didn't realize how important the Z row building 2nd level locations could be for interdiction of the southernmost landings). The JJ40 AA gun would also be placed somewhere better. Finally all of my tanks would be placed IN buildings along row K to stiffen opposition on that line. A few of them got whacked easily by stukas because I did not realize that walls do not allow HD status vs aircraft. I wont make that mistake again! I also think I was far too afraid of the opening bombardment and spread the southern most units out more than perhaps I should have. if I played again I would concentrate them more.
Anyway in spite of any of the above points if you like bigguns' I highly recommend the scenario. If you are super competitive it may not be for you due to all the variable reinforcements involved; the dice could really effect the outcome here. ROAR has it as 12 German to 17 Russian wins. IMO that is reasonable although leaning towards the Axis somewhat. But you are really playing this one just for the experience of playing it. For that I think it a unique scenario and have never played another quite like it. It was a lot of fun.
Sorry if this was all a bit long winded LOL.
I have a question for the designer or someone who was involved in the playtest. The VC require the Germans to control -AND/OR- interdict all ferry landings at game end (control of the Rail Station & Rail Crossing reduce this amount by 1 each). IMO at first glance this appears to be a fairly tall order for the Ruskis. I think they have a good chance of preventing the Axis from controlling all ferry landings but preventing interdiction is another matter altogether. The Russians get OBA directed by an offboard observer later in the game. Its not a great caliber (70mm) especially in +3 TEM terrain, but it is OBA. I think it is not too likely to do much damage to the Germans so could the Russians simply husband his OBA, save it and then obscure the ferry landings with it at the very end of the game? Put a fire mission in the river and prevent interdiction in these hexes? Or on the interdictors themselves?
So my question is this...was that the designer's intent? This essentially forces the Axis to take all the ferry landing to ensure that the Allies cant do this? So realistically they must CONTROL as opposed to INTERDICT to win? If the Germans do no control the landings a wily Ruska will just maintain fire discipline with his OBA until the scenario end and then drop it for hinderance?
I was the defender in this and was planning on doing it to secure the win. Our game did not go RIGHT until turn 19, but ended on 18 with this looking like the way to go. Both I & my opponent felt this seemed like a kind of gamey way to win. However, like every other ASL player I know worth his salt, I was not too morally righteous to let that keep me from victory. I felt dirty at the game end but there was plenty of water in the Volga to get clean with. I had to wash twice though to get rid of the smell LOL.
Was this kind of defense planned for? Given the pedigree of the designer / play-testers involved I imagine it was. But as I said it felt weird. If it was the intention that the Germans SHOULD CONTROL all ferry landings why not just state that in the VC?
**
Anyway, here's some thoughts on this scenario from the Ruski's POV:
The VC require the Russians to keep the Germans away from the riverbank. Their initial forces are primarily conscripts and to make matter worse the constraints of their set up area is (IMO) very bad. The terrain is also extremely unfavorable for them due to their lousy MFs.
They have some advantages. They get A LOT of commissars as well as several NKVD strongpoints. IMO these strongpoints cannot really do much to stem the tide unless the German tsunami directly hits these breakwaters. I feel the Germans can simply bypass these. They are fairly stalwart on defense but offensively the troops inside them cannot do too much against the Axis (individually they don't consist of too many troops or too much firepower.). Also they are stuck "in situ" until turn 10. If the Germans push & bypass I think there is a good chance they will be behind these structures by then.
The Russian get some reinforcements later in the game & I feel with these they can probably stop the Germans from sweeping the riverbank clean. But I think they may have trouble keeping the Germans out of all those 2nd level buildings that look down on the river & the Germans have LOTS of MGs.
In our game I made buildings R5, Y18, Y20, BB16, BB26 & DD31 NKVD Strongpoints.
I placed a 76L ART in R5 (on the 2nd level - used some fortified buildings there). I felt I must have something substantial there to combat the STUG which were due to enter on the northeast of the board. 9th of January Square is an obvious spot to place a breakwater. An 82mm MTR went in X20 & BB27 & another 76L ART in DD32 on the 2nd level. AA guns were in AA mode in JJ29, JJ40 & II48. The idea was to use them as an AA screen when the 1st reinforcements entered. (They also covered the Specialist's House if the stukas started hitting it after the 2nd level units opened up.)(As a side note these AA guns later got lucky 2 of them knocking out 2 STUGs on subsequent critical hits!! WOWZAA!!!)
The 1st main line of resistance was along row K and the 76 INF guns were all placed along that hex row to stiffen the line. Tanks were spread throughout this defense and a smattering of conscripts were spread throughout the railroad (rows E, F & G). They were intended to slow down the first impetus of the Axis before retreating to row K. I felt the Stalingrad 1 Rail Station was really indefensible and merely placed a few squads from the penal battalion there. Several squads were hidden in building K9 to also slow down the northeast reinforcements at 9th of January Square. A HIP radio observer was in Y17...an offboard one later placed in OO32.
I would insert a vasl pic of my setup but apparently the file is too large...oh well...
The idea was to contest the Germans as much as possible and slowly yield ground until my southern reinforcements entered.
Being very leery of the stuka screen I held all the armor reinforcements off-board until turn 13. Then I felt they could enter unmolested by aircraft and help the defense then. The AA guns (at least II48) would hopefully help the infantry get to cover as they entered before the tanks as soon as they were available.
The Ruski also gets a 10-3 leader and other assorted goodies at that point in time (turn 13). Unfortunately with the low visibility that sets in then it seems to make them much less fearsome than if they could see well to direct their fire. So they were not too effective at killing stuff....but they did help plug holes. I was disappointed that they were not more effective at actually removing German counters from the board but they were still a big help. (Increasing the body count is the fun stuff though not just slowing the enemy down).
My opponent attacked cautiously (I feel maybe too cautiously) and made good progress up to row K were he was held up for 2 -3 turns. After the the K row defenses were overcome he spent a few turns mopping the area up. I think this was a mistake. I know 19 turns is a long game but still I felt that the Axis should push towards the Volga with all speed. He used his stukas to good effect to practically wipe out my at-start tanks (1 survived until after the stukas had left and it was later recalled for MA disablement). After overcoming this Line of Resistance he continued on until he got to Line of Resistance #2 (Y18, Y20, BB16, BB26 & DD31 NKVD Strongpoints) and later hex row Z in the south. Building Y18, Y20 & DD31 in particular seemed to really slow down the Axis ..they all remained Russian throughout the game. In the south the Germans got as far as hex row EE before we stopped. Notably the Russian sniper was very active in the south wounding the 10-2 and 9-2 officers. This really helped slow them down.
The turn 1 STUGs were held offboard for a turn or 2. Axis northern reinforcements entered on turn 6 & the southern ones on turn 5. The first group of Russian reinforcements came on turn 8 & immediately created Line of Resistance #3 from Z41 to Z48.
The northern wing swept across 9th of January Square area sustaining some losses (1 STUG, 3 HTs) but largely intact (the 76 ART malf'd on his 2nd or 3rd shot) essentially bypassing all units in Pavlov's House and near the Milk Factory. They later hit the riverbank in the north and swept down out eventually taking building BB16 and all ferry landing north of there.
However, when the light started failing (Turn 13) so did the impetus of the advance as the Russians started putting more bodies into the line. The last few turns almost became a Mexican stand off before the attack was called off on turn 18.
I think my set up and plan was OK but if I were to do it again I would NOT make Y18, Y20 or BB16 NKVD Strongpoints. Instead CC20, Z40 & Z44 would be (I didn't realize how important the Z row building 2nd level locations could be for interdiction of the southernmost landings). The JJ40 AA gun would also be placed somewhere better. Finally all of my tanks would be placed IN buildings along row K to stiffen opposition on that line. A few of them got whacked easily by stukas because I did not realize that walls do not allow HD status vs aircraft. I wont make that mistake again! I also think I was far too afraid of the opening bombardment and spread the southern most units out more than perhaps I should have. if I played again I would concentrate them more.
Anyway in spite of any of the above points if you like bigguns' I highly recommend the scenario. If you are super competitive it may not be for you due to all the variable reinforcements involved; the dice could really effect the outcome here. ROAR has it as 12 German to 17 Russian wins. IMO that is reasonable although leaning towards the Axis somewhat. But you are really playing this one just for the experience of playing it. For that I think it a unique scenario and have never played another quite like it. It was a lot of fun.
Sorry if this was all a bit long winded LOL.
