victory conditions

BlitzCanuck

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After playing through the two demo scenarios, i have to ask about victory conditions.
The scenario briefing says 10-15 estimated turns. I guess that means the scenario can end anytime in that range but based on what? I've got a decisive victory in the tutorial scenario but the russians had unsuppressed units as close or closer to the flag than me. So why did the scenario end so abruptly?

I'm also confused as to flag control. In the larger scenario (can't recall the name---the one with the four flags) i ended up with a decisive victory and finished in control of 3 out of 4 flags.
The tutorial guide says that you need 50% more points in the "control zone" than your enemy.
When the game ended, I had nothing within 100m of one flag except an HMG team and the russians had 2 tanks and an infantry platoon and yet i controlled the flag.

Also, the one flag that the Russians controlled had no units at all within 100m as far as i could tell.

Can anyone explain any of this?
 

junk2drive

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Have you gone through the full manual yet?

In the tutorial the flag is worth enough points to end the battle once it changes hands. That is so that the battle ends quickly and you are not stuck with trying to kill everything to get it over with.

50% is a typo

The game ends once either player’s Victory Point gauge reaches the top. On each game map,
a flag indicates a Victory Objective; the flag color and symbol (Soviet or German) indicates
current ownership. Each of these locations is worth Victory Points, the exact number can be
found by clicking on the flag in the main view window.
Victory Points Awarded:
Objective Flag Captured = Flag Value
Unit Destroyed = Unit Point Value
Unit Damaged = ½ Unit Point Value
Defenders generally start each scenario with a significant VP advantage, since they own all of
the Victory Objectives. In some scenarios, an attacker will want to capture one of the objectives
quickly to ward off a quick defeat due to his losses. The defender’s victory points can quickly
mount if the attacker is being destroyed or damaged without taking a single objective away
from the defender.
In some scenarios, the defender can earn bonus victory points each turn after a certain time
limit is reached. While slow, methodical attacks may be the safest option, they are not always
the most successful if the scenario victory conditions call for speed on the attacker’s part.
Ownership of a Victory Objective is based on the total forces within 100 meters of the objective;
you need 20% more points within this area than your enemy to capture the objective. Contested
flags – those where neither side has 20% more points than the other within the 100m objective
zone – do not generate victory points.
At the beginning of a Multiplayer game, each side will see the flags as their own. This will not
change until after one full turn and the game can recalculate the disposition of the flags. To
win you need to get to reach the 75% mark and be 10% ahead of your opponent. If after 20
turns, one side gets to 90% of the points total for their pool and is not 10% ahead, then the
game will end as a draw. In a campaign, a draw is treated as a victory to allow you to advance
to the next battle.
Based on your victory point ratio vs. your opponent, the quality of your victory (or defeat) will
be determined. This can range from a Marginal up to a Legendary rating. Your performance in
each campaign scenario is tracked and stored. At the end of the campaign, a campaign rating
and rank is assigned to you based on your performance.
 

BlitzCanuck

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The game ends once either player’s Victory Point gauge reaches the top.
snip...
Okay, but my gauge never reached the top.
In the 4 flag scenario, it was at about 80% when the game ended on Turn 11.

I guess you don't actually have to have a unit within 100m to maintain control of an objective? I loaded up the saved game to check and there was a flag that i had control of at the end even though i had no units anywhere near it.
Same for the Russians and their one flag.
Guess i'll have to RTFM.
I still don't get why the scenario ended on Turn 11.
 

junk2drive

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First, once you control a flag, I think it stays yours until the enemy takes it from you. I don't think you have to babysit the flag.

I loaded your save. The middle flag is contested I suppose that the ISU just got there. It takes a phase or a turn before it changes IIRC. I clicked play and the Panther took out the ISU. Now the MG is the only thing within 100m. Then the reaction phase. The tool tips show 70% you and around 40% Soviets. Click play and it ends. The review button takes me back to the map and the tool tips show 82% to 52%. This means that the game flipped that contested flag to you and added the kills to bump you up to 82%.

Now the question is why does it end? The 75% rule above. Once one side reaches 75% the game checks to see if that side is 10% higher than the other. If so, game over. We had too many games where the winning side could not get to 100% because the other side had a truck hiding somewhere or something similar. We never had a setting for turn limit like CM. This way neither player knows when a battle will end so no end game heroics.
 

BlitzCanuck

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When the game ended, I had nothing within 100m of one flag except an HMG team and the russians had 2 tanks and an infantry platoon and yet i controlled the flag.

Also, the one flag that the Russians controlled had no units at all within 100m as far as i could tell.

Can anyone explain any of this?
I checked again and it looks like i was mistaken.
Although i don't see any way to know for sure how far away the Russians were, it looks like they were slightly more than 100m away from the flag.
and i had a tank hunter team and a flame-thrower team within 100m in addition to the HMG.

as far as i can tell, the manual doesn't explain how control of a flag was maintained by the russians even though there were no russian units within 100m.
You'd think the flag would go back to 'contested' status if no units remained nearby. But i suppose you could argue it was 'behind the lines'. That does kinda make sense although it would be nice if the manual explained it.
 

BlitzCanuck

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First, once you control a flag, I think it stays yours until the enemy takes it from you. I don't think you have to babysit the flag.

I loaded your save. The middle flag is contested I suppose that the ISU just got there. It takes a phase or a turn before it changes IIRC. I clicked play and the Panther took out the ISU. Now the MG is the only thing within 100m. Then the reaction phase. The tool tips show 70% you and around 40% Soviets. Click play and it ends. The review button takes me back to the map and the tool tips show 82% to 52%. This means that the game flipped that contested flag to you and added the kills to bump you up to 82%.

Now the question is why does it end? The 75% rule above. Once one side reaches 75% the game checks to see if that side is 10% higher than the other. If so, game over. We had too many games where the winning side could not get to 100% because the other side had a truck hiding somewhere or something similar. We never had a setting for turn limit like CM. This way neither player knows when a battle will end so no end game heroics.
Ok, you are referring to where the manual says: To win you need to get to reach the 75% mark and be 10% ahead of your opponent.
But then how would you ever get a better result if the game ends automatically before it gets to 'full term'?
And wouldn't your opponent be a bit pissed if they were denied several turns to swing the score back into their favour?
 

junk2drive

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And wouldn't your opponent be a bit pissed if they were denied several turns to swing the score back into their favour?
That's the way this game was designed, no turn limits. In some games having a set number of turns lead to gamey flag rushes and such.
 

BlitzCanuck

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That's the way this game was designed, no turn limits. In some games having a set number of turns lead to gamey flag rushes and such.
hmm, ok.
I have to say that when the game ended, it didn't really feel like i had achieved a decisive victory.
I guess i'll have to play the scenario a few times from both sides to see if this scoring design leads to satisfactory results.

Does the victory condition of 75% have to fall within the range of the "expected length"? For example, in this scenario, the expected length was 10-15 turns. Would the game have ended automatically if i had reached 75% by turn 9? I assume not, otherwise a defender starting out in possession of all objectives could easily hit 75% within the first few turns, depending on the relative point value of the flags to the enemy units.

And another question.....are all scenarios going to have an "expected length"?
 

BlitzCanuck

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That's the way this game was designed, no turn limits. In some games having a set number of turns lead to gamey flag rushes and such.
so if a scenario briefing states that the expected length is 10-15 turns, is it possible that the scenario could go more than 15 turns? And if so, how much longer? Indefinitely?

The manual says: If after 20 turns, one side gets to 90% of the points total for their pool and is not 10% ahead, then the game will end as a draw.
But when does that rule apply? What if it's a huge scenario with an expected length of 40-50 turns? Surely that 20 turn rule doesn't apply in every scenario?
 

junk2drive

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Sorry my son was a good boy and called his mother then I got on the phone and talked about war games with him.

OK the expected turns is just a number based on somebody playtesting the battle a few times and seeing how long it took. Most briefings won't have a number. PCK you had to get to 100%. If all your tanks were immobile and your troops were dead it was impossible to gain anything. After bantering around the possibilities the 75/10 and 20 turn rules seemed pretty good. Most CM battles were around 30 turns at 60 seconds. PC has 80 second turns and most battles seem to go around 20 turns. I have seen some nailbiters that go back and forth for well over 30 turns and still have a winner, not a draw.

It isn't easy to undo what you have come to expect from war games in the past and see how something different can work well but if you give it some time with the full game you might like it.
 

junk2drive

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Does the victory condition of 75% have to fall within the range of the "expected length"? For example, in this scenario, the expected length was 10-15 turns. Would the game have ended automatically if i had reached 75% by turn 9? I assume not, otherwise a defender starting out in possession of all objectives could easily hit 75% within the first few turns, depending on the relative point value of the flags to the enemy units.
A defender (or attacker) starting out in possession of the flags does not get the points for them. Just like each side starts with say 1000 points in units, it does not start the game with a 1000 point score.

It is up to the battle designer to set the point amount for the flag to something that will make sense in the battle. The flag can be worth almost no points and just be a guide for the AI or hundreds of points to tip the victory if taken by the aggressor.
 

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Scenarios have a setting where one side is considered the defender, the other attacker or both neither.
There's another setting in the scenario where a certain number of points is added to the defenders score after a turn number is reached. The defender then accumulates points the longer he holds out.
 

junk2drive

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Here is my notes for victory

Objective flags can now be in a neutral or contested state. You need 20% more points than your enemy in the 100m control zone to gain ownership of the flag. If a flag is contested, neither side receives the points. Contested state objective flags may be set in the scenario editor. They will not be generated by RBG or RCG.
At the beginning of a Multiplayer game, each side will see the flags as their own. This will not change until after one full turn and the game can recalculate the disposition of the flags.
In an effort to prevent games ending with 75% vs 74% minor win/loss, to win you now need to get to 75% and be 10% ahead of your opponent. If one side gets to 90% of the points total for their pool and is not 10% ahead then the game is a draw.
Numerical values have been added to the Victory screen. This will be shown as a percentage. This percentage takes into account damage to enemy, damage to self, objectives achieved and size of offboard assets both friendly and enemy. The two values can total more than 100%.
In a large battle, if both sides get to 75% by turn 20, it was a bloody mess. With so many units depleted to get to that point, and how the total is gathered as detailed above, it should take a while for one side to reach 90%. But no one wants a battle to go on forever. Especially a stand off where neither side moves. We don't have a cease fire button, I wish we did. One side can surrender though.
 

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Okay, but my gauge never reached the top.
In the 4 flag scenario, it was at about 80% when the game ended on Turn 11.
Yes, it will end sometimes without reaching all the way to the top. When you're side is the one climbing that's not an issue. When it's your opponents side that's climbing it can get really interesting while you try to affect his Victory levels.

I guess you don't actually have to have a unit within 100m to maintain control of an objective? I loaded up the saved game to check and there was a flag that i had control of at the end even though i had no units anywhere near it.
Same for the Russians and their one flag.
Guess i'll have to RTFM.
You control a flag by being the last side through it as well as with units within the control radius. So no, if you were the last side to control the flag you don't have to babysit it.

I still don't get why the scenario ended on Turn 11.
There is a German bonus in this scenario but it takes effect starting turn 15. You simply beat your opponent and game ended. There is a % of difference that is taken into account after a short time that comes into play to determine when a scenario ends. If you can reduce your difference of VL compared to your opponent when the VL's are climbing you may be able to get extra turns added to the scenario.

Good Hunting.

MR
 

BlitzCanuck

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Sorry my son was a good boy and called his mother then I got on the phone and talked about war games with him.

OK the expected turns is just a number based on somebody playtesting the battle a few times and seeing how long it took. Most briefings won't have a number. PCK you had to get to 100%. If all your tanks were immobile and your troops were dead it was impossible to gain anything. After bantering around the possibilities the 75/10 and 20 turn rules seemed pretty good. Most CM battles were around 30 turns at 60 seconds. PC has 80 second turns and most battles seem to go around 20 turns. I have seen some nailbiters that go back and forth for well over 30 turns and still have a winner, not a draw.

It isn't easy to undo what you have come to expect from war games in the past and see how something different can work well but if you give it some time with the full game you might like it.
Ok, i guess that makes sense. That is a big change from CMx1. Will take some getting used to but i like the concept.
 

BlitzCanuck

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Here is my notes for victory



In a large battle, if both sides get to 75% by turn 20, it was a bloody mess. With so many units depleted to get to that point, and how the total is gathered as detailed above, it should take a while for one side to reach 90%. But no one wants a battle to go on forever. Especially a stand off where neither side moves. We don't have a cease fire button, I wish we did. One side can surrender though.
Initially i was concerned that a large battle could end far too early but it makes sense that since it is based on a percentage of the VP pool, it should naturally take longer to gain 75% in a battalion scale battle than it would in a company sized scenario.
I'm looking forward to trying some of the bigger battles.

Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions.
 

junk2drive

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Thanks for taking the time to play the game and ask good questions and bring up valid points. Hopefully lurkers will read this and understand the game better.
 
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