Vehicular sized entrances in Red Barricades

Morbii

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So keeping the rules reasonably internally consistent isn't an issue for you? OK...good to know.

BTW, those interior building VSE would be OG costs to enter for vehicles.
Didn't realize it was OG costs. And yes, I would prefer the rules were internally consistent. But you can lay your straw man to rest and cease putting words into other people's mouths: the rulebook is FULL of inconsistencies; this may just be one more.

edit: or maybe not, as it may require entering from outside the factory (see AZSlim's post below).
 
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AZslim

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Since we are talking HASL the "anyway you and your opponent want to" is pretty much a given.

But let me ask you, based on your interpretation, do you believe that L15 is a VSE? And if not, why not?
Yes they would be as silly as it seems. The rule also says "Any unit may use the Open Ground entrance benefits of a Vehicular-Sized Entrance—but only when entering it from outside that Factory....." this part of the rule seems to say you pay 1/4 movement and check bog anyway so it's essentially not a VSE just a rooftop access point.
 

Sparafucil3

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BTW, those interior building VSE would be OG costs to enter for vehicles.
I used to think this way as well until Mr. Pleva pointed out my error:

ASLRB said:
B23.742 MF/MP: ... Any unit may use the Open Ground entrance benefits of a Vehicular-Sized Entrance—but only when entering it from outside that Factory and not if that Entrance is Roofless (see O5.42 for RED BARRICADES) ...
-- jim
 

General Mayhem

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What if M15 had been rubbled - entry from M15 to L15 would now be from outside the factory.
 

Morbii

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O.4C clearly states that both stairwell symbols and road entry Locations have FRAPs. No need to just add a stairwell in the same hex as the road. On the other hand, you need to put them somewhere if you want the 2.5 level factory, and if you don't want too many of them you need to put them where the roads enter.
Why pick and choose at random? (eg P6 and O9, but not P9)? Maybe the intent is that you don't have to use the road for those particular hexes. And speaking of P6, since the road is negated on the adjoining hex due to Rubble, can you even enter that hex on the road (I think not)?
 

General Mayhem

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Why pick and choose at random? (eg P6 and O9, but not P9)? Maybe the intent is that you don't have to use the road for those particular hexes. And speaking of P6, since the road is negated on the adjoining hex due to Rubble, can you even enter that hex on the road (I think not)?
I think the wording of the rule is that you have to cross a road hexside - nothing about being on a road - I might be wrong.
 

Stacks

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What if M15 had been rubbled - entry from M15 to L15 would now be from outside the factory.
You have the same problem for any other hex rubbled next to any other stairwell VSE in any other Factory, RB or not.
B23.743 FACTORY RUBBLE: A rubbled hex, although no longer a building hex, is still a part of the Factory ...
... Movement/fire from such a hex into the Factory is treated as coming from a Factory Location.

B23.743 FABRIKS RUIN: En ruin hex, som int längre är en hus hex, är fortfarande en del av fabriken ...
... Förflyttnig/fyr från sådan hex inåt fabriken anses komma från en Fabrik Lokation.
 

Morbii

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B23.743 FACTORY RUBBLE: A rubbled hex, although no longer a building hex, is still a part of the Factory ...
... Movement/fire from such a hex into the Factory is treated as coming from a Factory Location.

B23.743 FABRIKS RUIN: En ruin hex, som int längre är en hus hex, är fortfarande en del av fabriken ...
... Förflyttnig/fyr från sådan hex inåt fabriken anses komma från en Fabrik Lokation.
Excellent.
 

Patton007

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And speaking of P6, since the road is negated on the adjoining hex due to Rubble, can you even enter that hex on the road (I think not)?
What if you bypass P6 hexside...then change CA while in bypass to enter the building
 

apbills

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Yes they would be as silly as it seems. The rule also says "Any unit may use the Open Ground entrance benefits of a Vehicular-Sized Entrance—but only when entering it from outside that Factory....." this part of the rule seems to say you pay 1/4 movement and check bog anyway so it's essentially not a VSE just a rooftop access point.
Actually we have two parts to the rule.

1) A fully-tracked AFV already within a Factory hex may move inside the same building at one-fourth (FRU) of its MP allotment per hex but must take a Bog Check with a +1 Factory DRM for each such hex entered, and to exit the building must pay normal building entrance costs (23.41) (expended in the building) and check for Bog/rubble prior to entering the non-factory hex.

So, you can move inside a building using 1/4 MP and take a Bog Check, and must pay normal building entry costs when you exit the building.

But, we have an exception to this statement...
2) [EXC: Any vehicle may enter/exit a Factory hex containing a printed stairwell symbol or across a road hexside at Open Ground costs provided the hex is controlled by friendly forces (the stairwell symbol in this case representing a vehicular-sized entrance)].

So, applying the exception to statement #1, we see that for a vehicle, there is no limitation as far as entering/exiting the building, just entering/exiting a Factory Hex as long as you are entering/exiting a stairwell symbol or across a road hexside.

It is after this that we get the statement you have quoted.

3) Any unit may use the Open Ground entrance benefits of a Vehicular Sized-Entrance - but only when entering it from outside that Factory and not if that Entrance is Roofless (see O5.42 for RED BARRICADES).

So, it appears that vehicles may use a VSE regardless of entering for outside the factory. I think this is pretty clear, since if you take statement #3 as overiding statement #2, and limiting VSE benefits to just entering from outside the factory, then vehicles which leave a factory via a VSE would not get Open Ground benefits and would need to pay full building entry costs and check for Bog/Rubble per statement #1.

Statement #3 allows non-vehicles to use Open Ground benefits, since Statement #2 already allows vehicles this benefit. The difference is statement #3 does not mention exiting since only fully-tracked AFV would need to pay exit costs (per statement #1) if they were not using a VSE (and other vehicles could not leave a factory through a non-VSE) and statement #2 already covers exiting a VSE for vehicles.

Effectively statement #3 adds the open ground benefit to all non-vehicles when entering from outside a factory.
Also note that Statement #2 allows all vehicles to enter/exit a factory through a VSE, and you can move fully-tracked AFV inside factory hexes that are not VSE (statement #1)

Bottom line is, if you assume stairwells are VSE in RB, then an interior stairwell hex would cost a vehicle Open Ground costs to enter, and would cost any other unit normal factory costs (since it is not entering from outside the factory). You can either interpret the rule that way, and use the entire rule, or you can interpret it to be VSE are just Road entry hexes in RB.

My 2 cents are on VSE as only Road entry hexes.
 

AZslim

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So you don't think that ought to be part of one's "sniff test" on whether one's interpretation is correct or not?
Not really, there are quite a few things that some people think are kind of silly but are clear in the rules. A lot of people think the VBM freeze is silly but it is clearly allowed. I had one opponent get quite livid when I kept a tracking counter on his tank even though it was out of the Gun's CA. He said it wasn't real. And of course a real classic, it's hard to top the truck 1 FP Overrun for sheer silliness.
 

Tater

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Actually we have two parts to the rule.

1) A fully-tracked AFV already within a Factory hex may move inside the same building at one-fourth (FRU) of its MP allotment per hex but must take a Bog Check with a +1 Factory DRM for each such hex entered, and to exit the building must pay normal building entrance costs (23.41) (expended in the building) and check for Bog/rubble prior to entering the non-factory hex.

So, you can move inside a building using 1/4 MP and take a Bog Check, and must pay normal building entry costs when you exit the building.

But, we have an exception to this statement...
2) [EXC: Any vehicle may enter/exit a Factory hex containing a printed stairwell symbol or across a road hexside at Open Ground costs provided the hex is controlled by friendly forces (the stairwell symbol in this case representing a vehicular-sized entrance)].

So, applying the exception to statement #1, we see that for a vehicle, there is no limitation as far as entering/exiting the building, just entering/exiting a Factory Hex as long as you are entering/exiting a stairwell symbol or across a road hexside.

It is after this that we get the statement you have quoted.

3) Any unit may use the Open Ground entrance benefits of a Vehicular Sized-Entrance - but only when entering it from outside that Factory and not if that Entrance is Roofless (see O5.42 for RED BARRICADES).

So, it appears that vehicles may use a VSE regardless of entering for outside the factory. I think this is pretty clear, since if you take statement #3 as overriding statement #2, and limiting VSE benefits to just entering from outside the factory, then vehicles which leave a factory via a VSE would not get Open Ground benefits and would need to pay full building entry costs and check for Bog/Rubble per statement #1.

Statement #3 allows non-vehicles to use Open Ground benefits, since Statement #2 already allows vehicles this benefit. The difference is statement #3 does not mention exiting since only fully-tracked AFV would need to pay exit costs (per statement #1) if they were not using a VSE (and other vehicles could not leave a factory through a non-VSE) and statement #2 already covers exiting a VSE for vehicles.

Effectively statement #3 adds the open ground benefit to all non-vehicles when entering from outside a factory.
Also note that Statement #2 allows all vehicles to enter/exit a factory through a VSE, and you can move fully-tracked AFV inside factory hexes that are not VSE (statement #1)

Bottom line is, if you assume stairwells are VSE in RB, then an interior stairwell hex would cost a vehicle Open Ground costs to enter, and would cost any other unit normal factory costs (since it is not entering from outside the factory). You can either interpret the rule that way, and use the entire rule, or you can interpret it to be VSE are just Road entry hexes in RB.

My 2 cents are on VSE as only Road entry hexes.
Hmmm...I think you are right. There are two separate and specific rules here. One for vehicles the other for any other unit. If not then the exception for vehicles makes absolutely no sense. In fact, it would be as though they went to all the trouble to add the parenthetical exception merely to completely contradict it a few sentences later.
 

Tater

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Not really, there are quite a few things that some people think are kind of silly but are clear in the rules. A lot of people think the VBM freeze is silly but it is clearly allowed. I had one opponent get quite livid when I kept a tracking counter on his tank even though it was out of the Gun's CA. He said it wasn't real. And of course a real classic, it's hard to top the truck 1 FP Overrun for sheer silliness.
I disagree...the examples you reference are often challenged based on reality arguments...not "sillyness" arguments.

It is an undeniably rediculous interpretation that would put a VSE in an interior building hex...that is not a "reality" argument...that is a sanity argument.
 

AZslim

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Actually we have two parts to the rule.

1) A fully-tracked AFV already within a Factory hex may move inside the same building at one-fourth (FRU) of its MP allotment per hex but must take a Bog Check with a +1 Factory DRM for each such hex entered, and to exit the building must pay normal building entrance costs (23.41) (expended in the building) and check for Bog/rubble prior to entering the non-factory hex.

So, you can move inside a building using 1/4 MP and take a Bog Check, and must pay normal building entry costs when you exit the building.

But, we have an exception to this statement...
2) [EXC: Any vehicle may enter/exit a Factory hex containing a printed stairwell symbol or across a road hexside at Open Ground costs provided the hex is controlled by friendly forces (the stairwell symbol in this case representing a vehicular-sized entrance)].

So, applying the exception to statement #1, we see that for a vehicle, there is no limitation as far as entering/exiting the building, just entering/exiting a Factory Hex as long as you are entering/exiting a stairwell symbol or across a road hexside.

It is after this that we get the statement you have quoted.

3) Any unit may use the Open Ground entrance benefits of a Vehicular Sized-Entrance - but only when entering it from outside that Factory and not if that Entrance is Roofless (see O5.42 for RED BARRICADES).

So, it appears that vehicles may use a VSE regardless of entering for outside the factory. I think this is pretty clear, since if you take statement #3 as overiding statement #2, and limiting VSE benefits to just entering from outside the factory, then vehicles which leave a factory via a VSE would not get Open Ground benefits and would need to pay full building entry costs and check for Bog/Rubble per statement #1.

Statement #3 allows non-vehicles to use Open Ground benefits, since Statement #2 already allows vehicles this benefit. The difference is statement #3 does not mention exiting since only fully-tracked AFV would need to pay exit costs (per statement #1) if they were not using a VSE (and other vehicles could not leave a factory through a non-VSE) and statement #2 already covers exiting a VSE for vehicles.

Effectively statement #3 adds the open ground benefit to all non-vehicles when entering from outside a factory.
Also note that Statement #2 allows all vehicles to enter/exit a factory through a VSE, and you can move fully-tracked AFV inside factory hexes that are not VSE (statement #1)

Bottom line is, if you assume stairwells are VSE in RB, then an interior stairwell hex would cost a vehicle Open Ground costs to enter, and would cost any other unit normal factory costs (since it is not entering from outside the factory). You can either interpret the rule that way, and use the entire rule, or you can interpret it to be VSE are just Road entry hexes in RB.

My 2 cents are on VSE as only Road entry hexes.
You have an interesting point, I think I'm convinced this is the case. Looking at the RB map I see that there is only one interior factory stairwell that is not adjacent to an external one. So it would be possible to drive from outside the factory through to these inside the factory. This could make sense from a realism POV. Hex T34 (how appropriate) is the only one in the middle with no access. Odd but I still think the rules say the stairwell hexes are VSE's. It could probably use some clarification/errata, though, I agree.
 

AZslim

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I disagree...the examples you reference are often challenged based on reality arguments...not "sillyness" arguments.

It is an undeniably rediculous interpretation that would put a VSE in an interior building hex...that is not a "reality" argument...that is a sanity argument.
You don't think the truck Overrun is silly? Oh well, as I said there is only one interior VSE without access to and exterior one on the RB map. We probably agree this is silly, but I still think the rules say it is one.
 

James Taylor

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I disagree...the examples you reference are often challenged based on reality arguments...not "sillyness" arguments.

It is an undeniably rediculous interpretation that would put a VSE in an interior building hex...that is not a "reality" argument...that is a sanity argument.
Reality arguments, as you well know, are "silly" arguments because everyone can have their own interpretation of reality. And yet... you go ahead and make one... weak on the reality, but chock full of the usual Potato-hyperbole!

Come up here to Michigan, Tate... I can take you through plenty of factories (unfortunately many of them closed currently) that have interior "hexes" that would allow a tank to drive as if in open ground.

Open space in a factory is not at all uncommon--- and anyone who has walked a factory floor will know this.

(We can get in our game while you are here. ;))

JT
 

Tater

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Reality arguments, as you well know, are "silly" arguments because everyone can have their own interpretation of reality. And yet... you go ahead and make one... weak on the reality, but chock full of the usual Potato-hyperbole!
I didn't make a reality argument...I wasn't the one who called it "silly" to start with...AZslim did. I just don't see this issue in the same light as a reality argument...

For example: There is no rule in ASL titled VBM Freeze. There is a rule called..."A7.212 TARGET SELECTION LIMITS:". There is nothing "silly" about that rule. The argument vs VBMF (which is a tactic, not a rule) is always about whether an AFV crew would be willing to get that close to infantry...that argument has absolutely NOTHING to do with the actual rule.

Come up here to Michigan, Tate... I can take you through plenty of factories (unfortunately many of them closed currently) that have interior "hexes" that would allow a tank to drive as if in open ground.

Open space in a factory is not at all uncommon--- and anyone who has walked a factory floor will know this.
I have worked in factories most of my career...I am working in one right now. Frankly, I have always questioned why a vehicle needed to make bog checks in a factory because all the ones I have seen were either way open enough for vehicles to move in slowly without problem OR they couldn't get in at all (just like regular building). But, we aren't talking about open space...we are talking about a location which is termed "entrance". I have never seen a factory with a bay entrance in the middle of the building...never, ever.

So, to me, there is no comparison between this issue and reality arguments...what we have in this case is one interpretation creates a silly result...the other interpretation does not. That is strictly a rules thing...not a reality argument.

(We can get in our game while you are here. ;))
I wish...:thumup:
 
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