Vehicular MGs and MA - CA Change Penalty and Fire in Different Phases

Cult.44

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Here's a situation from yesterday's game with Curtis Brooks (FrF98 Amerikanskaya Suka):

In my MPh, I drive a T-34/85 around and stop for a rear shot against one of Curtis' Panthers. Curtis changes the Panther's VCA and fires his bow MG with a +4 DRM for the spin (no effect). In the subsequent DFPh, he fires the MA and doesn't factor in the DRM for the spin. I was thinking it would carry over but he and Tom Yetter convinced me that, because it was a different phase, the DRM didn't apply. Curtis missed his shot so it was moot point anyway.

When I got home, I wanted to see if I could validate in the rules that we played it correctly. I found this:

From D3.5: " ... if any weapon is fired from a vehicle, the remaining weapons must fire in the same phase or forfeit their non-CC fire attack opportunity for that Player Turn ..."

This makes it seem like if a tank fires its MG in the opponent's movement phase but doesn't fire the MA, the MA cannot fire in the subsequent DFPh.

But maybe the movement phase and defensive fire phase are a special case (earlier rules do talk about first fire and final fire going against the general rule of not firing in multiple phases) and the prohibition does't apply. But if that's true, wouldn't the CA change penalty carry over to the DFPh?

I'm hoping someone can ease my troubled mind.
 

jrv

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I was thinking it would carry over but he and Tom Yetter convinced me that, because it was a different phase, the DRM didn't apply. Curtis missed his shot so it was moot point anyway.
Per q&a below, the CA change DRM still applies.

From D3.5: " ... if any weapon is fired from a vehicle, the remaining weapons must fire in the same phase or forfeit their non-CC fire attack opportunity for that Player Turn ..."

This makes it seem like if a tank fires its MG in the opponent's movement phase but doesn't fire the MA, the MA cannot fire in the subsequent DFPh.

Quote of full sentence, with bold emphasis:

D3.5 "Non-CC vehicular MG fire is limited to the same fire phase (A.15) as the vehicle's other weapons or that of its PRC; if any weapon is fired from a vehicle, the remaining weapons must fire in the same phase or forfeit their non-CC fire attack opportunity for that Turn [EXC: Bounding (First) Fire; 3.31-.32]."

A.15 allows fire as first and final fire.

There is a q&a confirming this and that the case A DRM still applies:

q&a said:
A.15 Since the MPh and DFPh are considered one phase for Defensive Fire purposes, can an AFV fire (e.g.) its CMG as Defensive First Fire and later fire its MA in the DFPh?
A. Yes (and if it changed CA to fire the MG, the appropriate Case A DRM would still apply to its MA shot; D3.51). [An95w; An96; Mw]
JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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Q&A also confirmed by the A.15 example:

EX: A 4-6-7 squad firing during the opponent’s MPh as Defensive First Fire may still fire in its own DFPh at adjacent or same-hex units as Defensive Final Fire (provided it is not already marked with a Final Fire counter [EXC: FPF; 8.31]). An AFV firing its CMG as Defensive First Fire may still fire its MA in its DFPh; if it changed its CA to fire the CMG, the appropriate Case A DRM would still apply to its MA shot (D3.51).
 

Cult.44

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Someday I'll learn to be more thorough in my rules research.
 

von Marwitz

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Someday I'll learn to be more thorough in my rules research.
Ah! We all learn to be more thorough.
Alas, that does still not mean we do get better at actually finding what we are looking for, trust me. ;)

von Marwitz
 

Matt Book

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Q&A also confirmed by the A.15 example:

EX: A 4-6-7 squad firing during the opponent’s MPh as Defensive First Fire may still fire in its own DFPh at adjacent or same-hex units as Defensive Final Fire (provided it is not already marked with a Final Fire counter [EXC: FPF; 8.31]). An AFV firing its CMG as Defensive First Fire may still fire its MA in its DFPh; if it changed its CA to fire the CMG, the appropriate Case A DRM would still apply to its MA shot (D3.51).
The same applies to any Bow mounted/SA weapons on the CA change according to D3.51, but are multiple CA changes cumulative? For example, an M4 in OG changes it's VCA one hexspine and fires its BMG, later during First Fire it changes its TCA one hexspine to fire its CMG. If the MA fires in First Fire/Final Fire is the Case A DRM +4 as the DRM for two hexspine changes or is it +1 DRM for the last hexspine CA change? I think it is only +1 DRM since D3.51 states it is only based on the new CA change.
 

klasmalmstrom

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...For example, an M4 in OG changes it's VCA one hexspine and fires its BMG, later during First Fire it changes its TCA one hexspine to fire its CMG. If the MA fires in First Fire/Final Fire is the Case A DRM +4 as the DRM for two hexspine changes or is it +1 DRM for the last hexspine CA change? I think it is only +1 DRM since D3.51 states it is only based on the new CA change.
+4. The last VCA change also applies. See the D3.51 examples.
 
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Vinnie

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The sleaze is to turn your tank 3 hexspines to fire the bmg at +5 then turn the turret 1 hexspine to fire the MA at only +1.
 

Aaron Cleavin

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The VCA change of +5 would affect the MA attack as well.
However *As per D3.51* if one rotates only the TCA 2 hexspines and fires the CMG (vs a known enemy unit), then rotates the TCA (only) 1 more hexspine and fires the MA (Co-axially mounted) then only the one hexspine change penalty applies.
 

Fiedler

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However *As per D3.51* if one rotates only the TCA 2 hexspines and fires the CMG (vs a known enemy unit), then rotates the TCA (only) 1 more hexspine and fires the MA (Co-axially mounted) then only the one hexspine change penalty applies.
Does this apply for ROF shots as well?
 

mgmasl

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Years ago we sent a Q&A about this particular rule with no answer. Remembering

A vehicle may use any turreted weapon to change TCA, or any Bow mounted weapon to change VCA. Reading carefully rule about changing covered arcs, we though a vehicle usign a turreted Mounted weapon may not change TCA with respect a VCA when using this turreted weapon, ie, it may OR change the TCA only, OR change the VCA only, to get the target in their covered arc..
Same for bow mounted weapons, using a Bow mounted weapon the vehicle may only change the VCA..

During games we´ve seen lot of times vehicles changing VCA and TCA respect to VCA when firing only a turreted weapon, what we think may be done only by using at the same time a Turreted and a bow mounted weapons..

Any thoughs?
 

klasmalmstrom

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However *As per D3.51* if one rotates only the TCA 2 hexspines and fires the CMG (vs a known enemy unit), then rotates the TCA (only) 1 more hexspine and fires the MA (Co-axially mounted) then only the one hexspine change penalty applies.
Agree.....
 
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