Vehicle Self-Destruction

[Pyth]

5.411 SELF-DESTRUCTION: Only an Inherent crew that voluntarily abandons a vehicle may turn it into a non-burning wreck or malfunction its weapon(s) as it leaves.

Does a crew that voluntarily abandons have the option of wrecking the vehicle - and taking removable weapons if it so choses... that is my inherent halftrack crew can abandon their vehicle, wreck it, and take the AA LMG with them as they go?

 

[Brian W]

Yes, I believe it can do both as it abandons the vehicle.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

5.411 SELF-DESTRUCTION: Only an Inherent crew that voluntarily abandons a vehicle may turn it into a non-burning wreck or malfunction its weapon(s) as it leaves.

Does a crew that voluntarily abandons have the option of wrecking the vehicle - and taking removable weapons if it so choses... that is my inherent halftrack crew can abandon their vehicle, wreck it, and take the AA LMG with them as they go?

good thinking : I really should do this more going forward! esp those Bren carriers if I dun plan to remount

 

[Eagle4ty]

I would initially say yes one could do both, but the rules do not specifically allow such. It does say you can disable a weapon and turn the vehicle into a wreck (D5.411 as stated) and it does allow you to remove a SW (D6.631) but does not necessarilly allow one to remove a SW AND turn a vehicle into a wreck. If one follows COWTRA and doesn't assume just because one or more actions are allowed that a combined action is also allowed because it isn't specifically prohibited (Introduction), it may not be the case. I would hope that this action would be allowed, but as the rules stand I believe it is not allowed barring a Q&A to Perry as I have not seen any errata that allows such an action.

 

[Brian W]

I believe COWTRA means you can do both because the rule allows for both while excluding neither. If the rules had to spell out every possible combination of statuses and actions before an action were allowed, very few actions would be allowable.

 

[Ed Caswell]

I believe COWTRA means you can do both because the rule allows for both while excluding neither. If the rules had to spell out every possible combination of statuses and actions before an action were allowed, very few actions would be allowable.

There is a Q/A in Bill Kohler's Notes (June 2015) saying a Crew can abandon a vehicle, wreck it, and remove the weapons.

Ed

 

[Pyth]

Thanks for the replies all. How does COWTRA apply here -- Brian W's sense of it, or Eagle4tys? -- was exactly the general puzzle I was trying to resolve when I wrote my original question. I find Brian W's reasoning persuasive and it seems there's a Q&A that aligns with Brian's application of COWTRA on this specific question. It's something I think will be worth bearing in mind when thinking thru rules issues in the future.

Thanks again.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I would not invoke COWTRA at all in this case.
No rule excludes the other one.
Both actions are possible.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

There is a Q/A in Bill Kohler's Notes (June 2015) saying a Crew can abandon a vehicle, wreck it, and remove the weapons.

Where are these Notes located?

 

[von Marwitz]

Where are these Notes located?

Shouldn't that be in your Q/A compilation?

von Marwitz

 

[Eagle4ty]

I would not invoke COWTRA at all in this case.
No rule excludes the other one.
Both actions are possible.

I agree, they do not exclude each other and as I have stated it would be great if a simple "remove/...." were added to D5.411, however the rules as they are intended to work do not to exclude an action as you well know but allows one to do an action. Like yourself, I would more than likely not invoke COWTRA in this instance, but having said as much, I do not believe the rules as written allows it.:nod: (sure would like to see that small addendum made, but other than a short discussion here, I don't have a dog in the fight).

 

[jrv]

I don't see any reason that COWTRA would prevent the same action from having multiple results or effects.If removing the weapons, wrecking the vehicle and abandoning it were separate actions, then you couldn't declare that you were doing all three at once, but removing the weapons and/or wrecking the vehicle are options to the main action, abandoning, not separate actions, and the rules don't say they are mutually exclusive options.

JR

 

[Ed Caswell]

Where are these Notes located?

I have them on my PC from some time ago. I believe I downloaded them from your site or from the Texas ASL group. I haven't been able to locate source yet but will continue to look. Sorry I could not give you a better response.

Ed