VCA Bog Check in a Graveyard Road hex

[Tuomo]

Is there a Bog Check to change VCA in a Graveyard Road hex? Does it matter if the VCA change occurs across a non-graveyard road hexside?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Yes and no, IIRC.

 

[Tuomo]

Thanks Klas! Not the answers I was looking for... want to change your mind?

 

[Honosbinda]

It would make it awfully difficult to move around in graveyard road hexes (including for hypothetical hearses) if vehicles had to check for bog changing VCA on there! It's not about anyone changing their mind, it's about what the rules say. I don't see any rule for having to take a bog check in graveyard roads for this reason.

What are these roads for, if not for maneuvering vehicles around in the graveyard? Has anyone looked up the definition of 'road' in the dictionary lately?

If one were to stretch the interpretation of B18.41, then when a non-AFV moves into the graveyard road, basically such a unit would not be able to turn around or change VCA at all and could only leave by reversing. The last time I was on a graveyard road, this didn't happen to my personal Kubelwagon But of course, I'm putting myself in a position of being chided for making a 'realism' argument.

How about a rules-based argument? There is a specific bog effect for changing VCA across steep hill-roads in Korea, duly written. The same is true for Narrow Streets or Sunken Lanes, so I'd like to see a citation for such a rule applying to graveyard road that is just as specific.

 

[Ed Caswell]

It would make it awfully difficult to move around in graveyard road hexes (including for hypothetical hearses) if vehicles had to check for bog changing VCA on there! It's not about anyone changing their mind, it's about what the rules say. I don't see any rule for having to take a bog check in graveyard roads for this reason.

What are these roads for, if not for maneuvering vehicles around in the graveyard? Has anyone looked up the definition of 'road' in the dictionary lately?

If one were to stretch the interpretation of B18.41, then when a non-AFV moves into the graveyard road, basically such a unit would not be able to turn around or change VCA at all and could only leave by reversing. The last time I was on a graveyard road, this didn't happen to my personal Kubelwagon But of course, I'm putting myself in a position of being chided for making a 'realism' argument.

How about a rules-based argument? There is a specific bog effect for changing VCA across steep hill-roads in Korea, duly written. The same is true for Narrow Streets or Sunken Lanes, so I'd like to see a citation for such a rule applying to graveyard road that is just as specific.

Have to agree here. I cannot find anything in the ASLRBv2 that specifies a VCA change on a graveyard road requires a Bog Check.

 

[Binchois]

No reason to doubt Klas on this. Using COWTRA, things are pretty clear. The RB states that the graveyard-road hexside can be traversed without a BOG check, but VCA changes are not excepted:

D8.2 BOG: Bog occurs only when a vehicle fails a Bog Check DR. A vehicle must make a Bog Check as dictated by the Terrain Chart for entering, or exiting or making any VCA change (one Bog DR per hexspine) in, certain terrain types termed Bog hexes. [NOTE: I don't see an official list (or definition) of "Bog hexes," but the terrain chart does list Graveyards as such hexes.]​

​

B18.41 ...All vehicles may enter a graveyard through a graveyard road hexside at a cost of one MP (two MP if BU) and without checking for Bog.​

​

18.42 A graveyard road does not bestow any bonus for movement through a graveyard road hexside (3.4) — either alone or in combination with other road movement.​

​

So D8.2 makes the statement that you BOG check upon entering, exiting, and changing VCA. B18.41 excepts entering only and B18.42 states that there is no other "road" benefits to be gained by graveyard roads. Likely, these are closer to paths than roads.

I would hesitate to go against Klas here, but submit a question to Perry if you still have doubts. I suspect the ruling will be that VCA changes are Bog-able

 

[Tuomo]

I was just kidding about questioning Klas's judgement. I think Binchois is correct (in agreeing with Klas)

 

[jrv]

So if I am understanding this, by the same reasoning changing VCA on a woods-road requires a bog check. By the chart, both entering and changing VCA in woods requires a bog check, although the cost for entering is different on road vs. not on road. Per B13.41 entering a woods/road is excepted from a bog check. So only changing VCA on a woods-road requires a bog.

Or does B13.41 say that? It says that entering via a non-road takes all MP and a bog check. But COWTRA it does not say that there is no bog check on entry of a road. So as best I read the chart, entering on a woods-road costs road MP but still requires a bog check.

JR

 

[Binchois]

So if I am understanding this, by the same reasoning changing VCA on a woods-road requires a bog check. By the chart, both entering and changing VCA in woods requires a bog check, although the cost for entering is different on road vs. not on road. Per B13.41 entering a woods/road is excepted from a bog check. So only changing VCA on a woods-road requires a bog.

Or does B13.41 say that? It says that entering via a non-road takes all MP and a bog check. But COWTRA it does not say that there is no bog check on entry of a road. So as best I read the chart, entering on a woods-road costs road MP but still requires a bog check.

JR

I would say that "Roads" begin as a separate terrain type with a RB definition:

B3.1 Roads represent either paved or dirt surfaces. A road represented by a broad brown stripe such as 1Y10 is a dirt road; a broad gray stripe such as 1Z8 is a paved road.​

​

Woods-/Orchard-roads, sunken and elevated roads, etc. are all depicted using a variant of the same mapboard design and with additional/modified rules specific to each type. Graveyard roads (like paths) use a different design and are not otherwise treated as roads.

So a vehicle on the road of a woods-road can change VCA w/o Bog on account of it not being in the woods...

 

[jrv]

I would say that "Roads" begin as a separate terrain type with a RB definition:

B3.1 Roads represent either paved or dirt surfaces. A road represented by a broad brown stripe such as 1Y10 is a dirt road; a broad gray stripe such as 1Z8 is a paved road.​

​

Woods-/Orchard-roads, sunken and elevated roads, etc. are all depicted using a variant of the same mapboard design and with additional/modified rules specific to each type. Graveyard roads (like paths) use a different design and are not otherwise treated as roads.

So a vehicle on the road of a woods-road can change VCA w/o Bog on account of it not being in the woods...

I'm not understanding how you are applying that. Nothing in roads B3 says that bog is n/a on roads. Nothing says that a woods-road hex, while it is a road hex, is not also a woods hex. Per A2.4, a hex that more than one terrain type has cumulative terrain effects unless excepted. A woods hex requires a bog. A road hex does not except bog. A wood-road requires a bog, it would seem. A graveyard road explicitly rules out a bog on entry at least.

JR

 

[Larry]

An armored car, halftrack, or truck enter a graveyard road hex. The terrain chart does not call for a bog check. Can those units change CA?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I was NRBH, so I might have remembered incorrectly. Still NRBH.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Is there a Bog Check to change VCA in a Graveyard Road hex? Does it matter if the VCA change occurs across a non-graveyard road hexside?

Assuming a grave yard road is treated as a normal road for vehicular movement/Bog then - per D2.11 it looks like a VCA change would not incur a Bog DR.

D2.11 (sentence from J11 errata):
"...VCA changes (if not on a road) in difficult terrain (see Terrain Chart) require a Bog Check (D8.2)...."

 

[Binchois]

Yes, Klas. That's how my (recently updated to J12) RB reads. THIS is the answer to JR's last post:

D2.11 (sentence from J11 errata):"
...VCA changes (if not on a road) in difficult terrain (see Terrain Chart) require a Bog Check (D8.2)...."

Which leaves this as the question:

Assuming a grave yard road is treated as a normal road for vehicular movement/Bog ...

Is a graveyard road treated as a normal road? Virtually everything (from the mapboard depiction to LOS) seems to suggest no, B18.4-.42 included. Their design suggests that these are intended as a narrow kind of vehicular path not an actual road.

 

[Robin Reeve]

B18.41 ... All vehicles may enter a graveyard through a graveyard road hexside at a cost of one MP (two MP if BU) and without checking for Bog. Otherwise, only fully-tracked vehicles may enter a graveyard and they must expend half their MP allotment plus check for Bog (D8.21) with a +3 DRM [EXC: motorcycles may enter via a non-road hexside at a cost of four MP, except across a wall or hedge].

I see only mention of Bog check for entering a graveyard with a fully tracked vehicle not crossing a graveyard road hexside.
Nothing about changing VCA.

 

[Tuomo]

Q&A submitted. Perry has nothing better to do on a Saturday, so I'm sure we'll have the answer momentito.

 

[c600g]

I see only mention of Bog check for entering a graveyard with a fully tracked vehicle not crossing a graveyard road hexside.
Nothing about changing VCA.

... and nothing about leaving a graveyard via road hexside either. So, you can enter a graveyard via a road hexside without a bog check, but leaving via a road hexside still incurs a bog check?

Alan

 

[MajorDomo]

This thread seems a bit surreal to me.

We know through the ASLRB, errata and Perry Sez that a vehicle can enter/exit a woods-road hex on a road at the road rate, turn VCA at one mp through road-woods hexside, two through a non-road-woods hexside. Also, that exiting a woods-hexside through non road hexside requires a woods bog check.

I would play the same for a road-graveyard hex rather than require the issuance of errata, Perry Sez... Lord knows, the man has enough to deal with.

Rich

 

[Robin Reeve]

This thread seems a bit surreal to me.

We know through the ASLRB, errata and Perry Sez that a vehicle can enter/exit a woods-road hex on a road at the road rate, turn VCA at one mp through road-woods hexside, two through a non-road-woods hexside. Also, that exiting a woods-hexside through non road hexside requires a woods bog check.

I would play the same for a road-graveyard hex rather than require the issuance of errata, Perry Sez... Lord knows, the man has enough to deal with.

Rich

That is I was implying too.

 

[Binchois]

... and nothing about leaving a graveyard via road hexside either. So, you can enter a graveyard via a road hexside without a bog check, but leaving via a road hexside still incurs a bog check?
Alan

A worthy point. Of course exit and VCA Bog checks are made without the +3 DRM.

I'd also add that there's quite a difference between the graveyard-roads of board 12 and board 21. The first is drawn thin like a path while the second is quite a boulevard connecting to the road beyond the cemetery. Not that that means anything specific, but it does make me doubt myself...

I can totally imagine the typical European cemetery that was created well before motorized transportation, so the idea of a graveyard road being too narrow for an AFV to maneuver (without knocking over a few monuments) makes perfect sense to me. However, it does seem strange that even wagons would run into the same problem when changing VCA, and surely a Jeep might have more luck.

While wavering a bit after this thread, I do think that the RB does leave it an open question. At least as drawn, graveyard-roads do not actually appear to be "Roads" as defined in the book - perhaps requiring SSR to make them more-maneuverable. I never thought of them as such but admit to never having driven into one! I hope Perry responds.