VBM Entry on a half hex?

Bret Hildebran

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Dumb rules question time. Say I can enter the map up to L20 which is a half hex with woods in it. If I VBM the off board side of L20, did I enter on L20? Can I be shot in L20? Can I then drive into M20 which is not a legal entry hex? Or if I have to enter on L20 do I actually have to VBM one of the onboard portions of L20 to have entered there. The only vaguely pertinent rule I can find is A2.51 the line which says: "All terrain on an offboard setup map is considered Open Ground except for off-map half-hexes which are butted against a half-hex of some other terrain type..." but that doesn't really answer my question unfortunately. Thanks for any thoughts...

20667
 

Doug Leslie

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I would say no, no and no. The AFV is not onboard until it enters the onboard part of L20. It can‘t be fired on until it does. I don’t believe that creating a CAFP at the M19/M20/L20 vertex is sufficient to put the AFV onboard. For starters, what if it reversed along the offboard hex side, thereby making it impossible to shoot at? Would it be on board or off board?
 
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Tuomo

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I'd say yes, yes, and yes. I think the L20/M19/M20 vertex is legally part of L20, so it's OK to enter there, and you can be shot there. If you enter there (using VBM along L20/M21) and stop and reverse out to L21, you'd be leaving the board after entering, which would eliminate the unit, no?

What map is that, with no building shadow in L19?
 

Larry

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I can't see OG on both sides of the counter where it is right now, so the bypass of that "hexside" is not legal. The unit bounces back to L21 and ends it MPh ... or just do it over.
 

apbills

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I would say no. You are bypassing the hexside, which is offboard, which means you have not entered the board. the fact you trace LOS to the vertex, which is onboard, does not change the fact you are not traversing an onboard hexside. I think if you allow such a move it opens up a few issues. For instance, do you now check for VBM clearance using the "mirror image" of the half hex, effectively the L20:M20 hexside is used for that clearance check? In the picture provided you may be blocked. Do you allow an onboard vehicle to use VBM on that same hexside? If not, why not? I think the ability to use that hexside must be valid for both incoming units as well as for onboard units or else neither would be able to use it.
 

bendizoid

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I can't see OG on both sides of the counter where it is right now, so the bypass of that "hexside" is not legal. The unit bounces back to L21 and ends it MPh ... or just do it over.
The rules don’t say ‘open ground’ it says ‘clear of any obstacle depiction’.
 

Tuomo

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For instance, do you now check for VBM clearance using the "mirror image" of the half hex, effectively the L20:M20 hexside is used for that clearance check? In the picture provided you may be blocked.
Right; if that hexside wouldn't allow VBM, then its mirror image hexside wouldn't either. No problem?
 

Larry

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The mirror image rule in A2.6 describes that mirror image as off-board.
 

Larry

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The rules don’t say ‘open ground’ it says ‘clear of any obstacle depiction’.
You have to see non-obstacle terrain on both sides of the counter -- not woods, not building -- usually OG but sometimes brush, etc. In the picture, it is the OG portion of the woods hex.
 

Doug Leslie

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I'd say yes, yes, and yes. I think the L20/M19/M20 vertex is legally part of L20, so it's OK to enter there, and you can be shot there. If you enter there (using VBM along L20/M21) and stop and reverse out to L21, you'd be leaving the board after entering, which would eliminate the unit, no?

What map is that, with no building shadow in L19?
The point that I was making was that the AFV could bypass L20/L21 in reverse and stop there, if the argument that this counts as onboard entry is correct. The CAFP would then be offboard and the AFV could not be shot at. It seems to be a strange result if an AFV can be onboard if it is pointing in one direction but offboard if it is pointing in the other.
There is a precedent for saying that a vertex alone cannot bring a vehicle into LOS.

C.5B FIRE WITHIN CA: A firer that must fire within a given CA must have the hex containing the target completely within its CA— merely having the vertex (or hexside) aiming point forming a part of the boundary of its CA is insufficient.

If a vertex on its own is not sufficient to bring a target into a gun's CA, how can it bring a vehicle onboard when in every other respect it is clearly offboard?
 

apbills

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Right; if that hexside wouldn't allow VBM, then its mirror image hexside wouldn't either. No problem?
The problem is the actual hexside. Are non-depicted hexsides of a half-hex playable? Do hexsides K21:L20, L21:L20 and M21:L20 exist as part of the playable onboard map? Can a vehicle end its MPh in VBM on hexside M21:L20?

IMO no. However, if you believe yes, do you also allow movement on the L21:L20 hexside? Can a vehicle end its MPh in VBM on that hexside? Is the onboard determination based on where the LOS is traced to? i.e., can a vehicle use the L20:M21 hexside if it is facing L21? Why is it ok if facing M20 but not if facing L21? Can an infantry unit use bypass to move from M20 along the L20:M21/L20:L21 hexsides and then along the L20:K21 hexside? The move allows for LOS traced to onboard vertices M20:L20:M21 and then L20:K20:K21.
 

Bret Hildebran

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Thanks for the thoughts so far - sounds like there is not a general consensus, which makes me feel good that I didn't ask a really easy rules question at least.
 

Bret Hildebran

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Can an infantry unit use bypass to move from M20 along the L20:M21/L20:L21 hexsides and then along the L20:K21 hexside? The move allows for LOS traced to onboard vertices M20:L20:M21 and then L20:K20:K21.
Interesting point - allowing it on entry would almost imply you could do it during the normal course of play which would seemingly open up a whole new can of worms it would seem...
 

Bret Hildebran

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I went ahead and submitted a Q&A to MMP:

I can enter the map up to L20 which is a half hex with woods in it. If I VBM the off board side of L20, did I enter on L20? Can I be shot in L20? Can I then drive into M20 which is not a legal entry hex?

If yes to the first question, could an onboard infantry unit in M20 legally bypass around the off map side of L20 since it is considered onboard? If so could it only be legally shot at the L20/M20/M21 or L20/K20/K21 vertices?

Or if I have to enter on L20 do I actually have to VBM one of the onboard portions of L20 to have entered there?
Along with the pic. I added the portion on the infantry due to Alan's thoughts as I think it is an important perspective on potentially opening Pandora's Box depending on the answer...
 

ScottRomanowski

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The "mirror image" rule is only mentioned under mapboard exit, so I don't think it applies to mapboard entry. A2.5 implies that off-map half-hexes butted up to non-OG on-map half-hexes are of that terrain type, but it doesn't say anything about their configuration. I think that the vehicle could move to CAFP L20-(M21)-M20 and be fired upon there, then enter M20. This feels "broken" if the vehicle is moving in reverse, since there's be no LOS to the L20-(M21)-(L21) vertex, and the unit would suddenly appear in M20, but it'll be moving in reverse and the chances are anything that could have hit it at L20-(M21)-M20 could probably still hit it in M20, and now possibly through the rear target facing.

I'm glad you asked the Q&A, @Bret Hildebran, because this is such an odd situation!
 

Sean Deller

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I agree with Bob & Tuomo: Yes, Yes, and Yes. None of this contradicts D2.32. The CAFP, not where the counter is placed, is what matters. I would argue that the vertex exists at the point at which the hex grid meets the edge of the mapboard, regardless of how well/poorly the map was cut.

I think this sentence from D2.6 strongly implies this: "Bypass can be claimed to exit a hex (such as 2X0) only if the unit has one additional MF/MP in excess of that needed for Bypass."

Regarding this example....
Can an infantry unit use bypass to move from M20 along the L20:M21/L20:L21 hexsides and then along the L20:K21 hexside? The move allows for LOS traced to onboard vertices M20:L20:M21 and then L20:K20:K21.
...I say "No" because L20/L21 hexside is completely (inclusive of both vertices) offmap (so the bypassing unit has exited the mapboard). IMO, an Infantry unit could enter the L20/M20/M21 vertex in bypass from M20 and then pay the additional MFs to enter the L20 woods (I see no reason to ever do so, but I have no issue with it).

Cheers,
Sean
 
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