VASLeague 2018, general discussion

WuWei

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#21
Wuwei the regional leagues were of 20 players till a couple of years ago. I had to diminish the number to 16 (and to 12 for the West-Central) because simply there are not 20 (European) +20 ( East) +16 (west-central) players able to play diligently these regional leagues for five rounds. Too many forfeits for my taste year after year. This was a damage not only for the forfeiting players, but also a hit for their opponents and the League itself.
Nowadays 16+16+12 seems better because 32 players in the TOP and 48 players at intermediate level reflect probably the size of our VASL/competitive community.
The rest are players that - no offense intended - do not have the same level of interest of the others. Or at least still have to show such interest.
If your main goal is to have a pool of reliable players in the regional leagues, you could stop relegation the worst players to the SLL, and only relegate those who forfeit games. You could also allow any returning players who took a pause for a year or two (but didn't forfeit any games while they where active in the league) to return to the regional leagues directly. You would only need to adjust the number of rounds depending on the number of players each season.
 

ecz

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#22
If your main goal is to have a pool of reliable players in the regional leagues, you could stop relegation the worst players to the SLL, and only relegate those who forfeit games. You could also allow any returning players who took a pause for a year or two (but didn't forfeit any games while they where active in the league) to return to the regional leagues directly. You would only need to adjust the number of rounds depending on the number of players each season.
this would create a VASLeague like NBA, where no relegation exist. I do not think I can close the door in the face of those players that wish reach the higher level of play in the TOP VASLeague, clearing their path from the bottom level. Instead new players should wait for /hope there are enough forfeits to let them enter at the place of the cancelled players. This, in my opinion, diminishes the popularity of VASLeague. A soft turnover must be always possible to keep attractive VASLeague
 

ecz

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#23
Then I miss something :)

the second league was created because you felt there were too many players ruining the standings by forfeiting their games. Personally I always tought that is not the solution, because that would simply move the same problem to the lower level. By banning the guilty for the next season you are not doing any harm I think.. just keeping the situation fair for all. This way also th regional leagues would become much more interesting.
the lower level (The Second Line League) is at the edge of VASLeague. The current format diminishes dramatically forfeits in the Regional Leagues as expected.
Forfeits have been 10,5 as average per year in 2017 and 2016, while they were 39,5 as average per year in 2015 and 2014 when Second Line League was still not existent.
True, the "inconstant players" are still here, and now are just relegated in the lower level, and they are a lot, but at least they do not occupy space in the first two levels (= more fun for the best/constant players).
Besides, a crowed Second Line League -where Time Zone does not count - forges better VASL players ... if they survives.
My only concern is about the fact that a Second Line League with a low quality of players (with 50 + players is unavoidable that quality drops) could discourage the few who should deserve a better treatment.

Probably adding a relegation per Regional League (from two to three) is the best way to handle the problem. At least 9 players/per year gain the pass to the higher level.
 

boylermaker

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#24
I like WuWei's idea of ending relegation from regional league to SLL. If you keep relegation between the top and regional leagues, then you have the whole, fun "climb the ladder" experience intact, but you give the most people a chance to experience life in the regular, cancel-free leagues, once they have demonstrated that they are being serious about it.

As somebody in a regional league, I wouldn't mind expanding to funny league sizes to accommodate all of the non-cancelled SLL players. So the worst case scenario would be something like 27 Europe/Asia, 19 EUSA, 13 WUSA, or whatever, I don't think that would bother me. I'd much rather have a bye every once an a while than have to worry about returning the SLL, which as you mention is a bit less fun, not because of the quality of play, but because of the frequency of cancellations.
 

ecz

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#25
my only concern, as said, is that with a too crowed Second Line League I risk to keep off the fun even good/excellent players without a real reson. It could happen with 52+ players (as currently in the SLL) that there are 4 or more players undefeated after 5 rounds, and could happen that someone of them miss the promotion just because the buholz coefficient says no. Unfair.
A little change that avoids unnecessary pain, is to grant to everyone finishing 5-0 to gain promotion, not counting his final position. This way at least everyone attending is sure that if he makes a perfect tournament he will leave the SLL. This implies that the following year one Regional League could have more than 16 players to accomodate the extra player(s) but this is passable.
 

igycrctl

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#26
Couldn’t you add a regional league? Obviously I don’t have the time zone info on the 2ll, but with that you could determine where the most players are and create a new regional league. This would allow more players to move up from the 2ll.
 

ecz

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#27
Couldn’t you add a regional league? Obviously I don’t have the time zone info on the 2ll, but with that you could determine where the most players are and create a new regional league. This would allow more players to move up from the 2ll.
I could also increase the number of players for each Regional league, proportionally. But this brings us back to the starting point. I have reduced from 20 to 16, and then to 12 (the West-Central League) the Regional leagues because I have seen that 32 players in the TOP and 56 players shared in three regional leagues (total 88) are too many for our online community.
We do not have 88 competitive (VASL) players that year after year, for 5 times/year, contact the opponent and arrange the playing even if there is no chance to win the tourney. The average number of forfeits says everything. Thus two years ago I have reduced the number of players in each regional league to reflect the real number of the base. As I outlined above the average of forfeits per year has suddenly dropped from 39,5 to 10,5 that is acceptable. If I create a brand new regional league, or if I slightly increase the number of players in each, I will have again a not acceptably high number of forfeits.
I want to protect the fun of players in the TOP VASLeague and in the Regional leagues (in my opinion no forfeit = maximum fun) , but at the same time I want leave a chance for new players to clear their path to the title starting from the Second Line League. This chance must be real and not theoretical.
 

WuWei

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#28
I want to protect the fun of players in the TOP VASLeague and in the Regional leagues (in my opinion no forfeit = maximum fun) , but at the same time I want leave a chance for new players to clear their path to the title starting from the Second Line League. This chance must be real and not theoretical.
I still don't understand how relegating reliable players without any forfeits from the regional league to the SLL help you with your goal...
 

mgmasl

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#29
I´ve played SLL twice and I think I will not try a third time. IMHO problems with time zones and game skill are excesively important, and accordying to my experience you need lot of luck to enjoy the games you need to win to reach a higher level league.. I mean I have to consider games as profesional jobs to get a good result forgetting anything about the enjoyment of a good ASL game. Something I personally can´t afford because of the few number of games I will surely play next year.
I think an effort to get leagues with similar time_zones/game_skill even in SLL would be fantastic but I suppose is not posible or excesively complex to be considered a valid effort. ITOH I know perfectly the big effort done by Enrico to have this league on and so I´ve never commented anything about.. I mean he´s doing a fantastic unpayable job for those playing the big leagues consuming a lot of his family time. To know more and more players are entering SLL is surely doing this pre-selection more necessary.

I prefer by now trying to play good scenarios vs known players, specially if they´re interested in playing scenarios for future live tournaments.

Anyway, family and job keep me off the VASL arena by now.
 

ecz

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#30
I know that it's hard in SLL, but I figure it as a necessary bad to protect the quality in the superior leagues. No doubt that best and motivated players accidentally playing in SLL will leave it very soon after just one year. While the "inconstant" players will tend to gather there and stay parked in SLL year after year.
That said, given the tremendous number of players in SLL 2018 (59!) I think it's better if THREE players from each regional league are relegated down to the SLL (or more if there are cancellations and abandonments). This permits to at least nine players coming from SLL to have the chance to leave it, possibly forever.
 

ecz

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#31
It is the 31.12.2017, no more subscriptions are allowed as time is expired.
We have the highest ever number of partecipants: 140.
I have just created the pairings for round 1. The games - from the 1st January, can start. The first round ends on the 28th February.
As always I ask to report the results and the scenario's name and the sides as soon as possible on the forum or via email at VASLeague@gmail.com

Three notes:
1) given the tremendous number of partecipants in the Second Line League (64) the relegations from the three regional leagues ( East, West-Central and Europe-Oceania ) are three per league and not two. Even more than 9 promotions are possible if there are cancellations leaving further space in any regional league that must be filled with extra people coming from the Second Line. So at least nine players on the 64 of the Second Line League will move next year to the higher level, may be more.
2) The nine players promoted from the SLL are not necessarily the "best nine" according the final table. The players promoted are the best three belonging to the East TZ, the best three belonging to the West-Central TZ, and the best three belonging to the European/Oceanian TZ not counting their actual final position in the general table.
3) Just for the record starting from 2018 it is possible for the new players join the Second Line League even later, during the tournament. At April anyone can subscribe and start the tournament from round 3. The new players can still in theory gain the pass to the superior level with three wins on three playings.

TOP VASLeague Round 1
BEEKMAN edward vs PAGNI andrea
KOESTLER alex vs CHAPMAN chris
DOMOVIC rich vs BAYS john
KILLEEN kevin vs WASSERMAN jeff
MAZZEI chris vs TINTURE laurent
ROUTH brian vs YOUNG kenneth
LAUGER paul vs CHAMBERLAND paul
STAPF nathan vs KLAUTKY mike
CARIOLATO paolo vs ROSSO vic
GARCIA SILVA pablo vs CORRIGAN eoin
HOULISTON craig vs CLEAVIN aaron
CATANZARO enrico vs HOFLAND chris
LOPER robert vs FEINSTEIN robert
COLE jon vs WIERSMA brian
NOGUEIRA carl vs DUNN ken
BOUDRENGHIEN françois vs ROUNDHILL brian

European/Oceanian League Round 1
HANNA marc vs KENT ivan
VICCA martin vs LORENZEN bjoern
CORIASCO sandro vs CALTABIANO sebastiano
JENSEN lars peder vs FLEMING will
MARTINEZ juanjo vs CONFORTI leonardo
KOCH kris vs LUNDY darryl
CABRÉ marti vs TOZE santos
ISELLA stefano vs PENABELLA santiago

US/Can East League Round 1
SCHAEFFER paul vs DYE charles
ARRIETA rob vs PALMA patrick
WILLOW will vs NORKO damon
MOTES doyle vs BOYLE jack
YLLANES david vs FARDETTE james
TAYLOR jim vs WATSON mark
FORTIN jean francois vs AUGUSTINE mike
WERT jason vs BUSER jeff

US/Can West Central League Round 1
LEHMAN john vs PERHAM dave
HAMMOND charles vs OLER robert
ROSNER david vs ZINSELMEYER robert
ROHLFING larry vs KNIPPEL steffen
HAASL david vs KING stewart
BURNETTE jason vs VOZNIC ryan

Second Line League Round 1
NIKOLOV al vs TAM stephen
ARMSTRONG spencer vs KOLENSKI mark
GALLI rick vs BARTLETT gary
VIHERSAARI eero vs GRIFFA alberto
LE BILLAN laurent vs GARCIA GOMEZ ricardo
TEWKSBURY chuck vs DEMPSEY jack
BEATON andy vs CHILDS bruce
CHRISTO anthony vs TYSON robert
HOLLAND don vs KAPLEAU jonathan
CALCADA luis vs VAN INNIS pieter
CONNELLY roy vs DRAGONETTI jay
KIRKPATRICK albert vs MASON pierce
GARVIN david vs VENNARUCCI joseph
COLIN lionel vs BELLINI jim
STEWART stephen vs ROGNEHOLT peter
BEIJARD dirk vs LUNNEY adam
GOLDIN andrew vs DEISSLER tobias
KEHRER jordan vs RUSCH nick
SOCKWELL mark vs LANGER david
WRIGHT gerald vs FANTEGROSSI alfred
MARTINI luca vs CUNNINGHAM dan
RIMWALL magnus vs REENSTRA dave
CUMMINGS steve vs BOCK john
SHURTZ randy vs HØGENHAUG ketil
RUSSELL kevin vs MORO joe
BOND steve vs BROOKS chris
ANDERSON steve vs ALESSE roberto
SELLARS lee hyde vs HUNTER jim
REZACK todd vs KARLSSON bjorn-erik
KRAUSE alan vs DELAURA norman
ZAVALA felipe vs RIEMER andy
HARVIALA mika vs WESTON ramon

site www.vasleague.org updated
an email will follow to everyone
 

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ecz

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#32
Starting from 2018 I'm going to begin a new tradition :
the first VASLeague player posting here on the forum the result of his first playing, wins a free VASL game vs the Tournament Director. Scenario to decide among a selection of three offered by the TD.
 

ASL1

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#34
So if the VASLeague director loses, does he get demoted to the SLL?? ..
Happy New Year!!
Pierce
 

ecz

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#35
So if the VASLeague director loses, does he get demoted to the SLL?? ..
Happy New Year!!
Pierce
ah ah good idea, but I'm not that kind of TD.
I'm more like the kind of TD that awards to the winning player a bonus of 0,5 points in his league when all fractions are rounded down.
 

igycrctl

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#36
So, never having played in a tournament like this, I was wondering what the protocol is for introductions to our opponents. Should I contact my opponent directly or does the TD do the introductions? Sorry if this is a question with an obvious answer, but I don’t wish to step on anyone’s toes. Thanks.
 

buser333

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#37
So, never having played in a tournament like this, I was wondering what the protocol is for introductions to our opponents. Should I contact my opponent directly or does the TD do the introductions? Sorry if this is a question with an obvious answer, but I don’t wish to step on anyone’s toes. Thanks.
Enrico does a lot of work as it so I am sure he would appreciate (and it is general protocol) that you contact your opponent directly.
 

ecz

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#38
Enrico does a lot of work as it so I am sure he would appreciate (and it is general protocol) that you contact your opponent directly.
of course yes. with 140 players and 70 games scheduled bimonthly it could be a little time consuming if I had to act as an intermediary...
 

igycrctl

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#39
of course yes. with 140 players and 70 games scheduled bimonthly it could be a little time consuming if I had to act as an intermediary...
Thanks for the reply. Looking forward to contacting my opponent tomorrow.
 

WuWei

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#40
Starting from 2018 I'm going to begin a new tradition :
the first VASLeague player posting here on the forum the result of his first playing, wins a free VASL game vs the Tournament Director. Scenario to decide among a selection of three offered by the TD.
If all goes according to plan and we can finish the game in one go,we might have a result as early as 6th January. If anyone wants to beat this, hurry up! :)