VASLeague 2014 General Discussion

Stewart

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I'm curious, when scenarios are playtested....why aren't the PT results listings on ROAR as the game comes out? Are they ALL perfectly balanced?

Yes, yes, changes are made, but they played again AFTER the suggested changes? Maybe just post the # of playtests. I know this is a Pandora's box, but...

Is it like buying a FORD...some are good, most are crap..
 

Gunner Scott

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Well Andy, obviously you gave Jim some insight on this scenario, something was not available to me? Kind of unfair dont you think? Anyway, lessoned learned,

Scott
 

rwcallen

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I'm curious, when scenarios are playtested....why aren't the PT results listings on ROAR as the game comes out? Are they ALL perfectly balanced?

Yes, yes, changes are made, but they played again AFTER the suggested changes? Maybe just post the # of playtests. I know this is a Pandora's box, but...

Is it like buying a FORD...some are good, most are crap..
Stewart, I started a new thread in the main ASL folder, you asked a great question about playtesting and I didn't want to derail the VASLeague thread with my response.

I will say that being able to look at a scenario and determine if you want to play it based on forces allotted, mapboards, and VC to be achieved is a critical skill for playing in tournaments. I would further add that most players who want to play a particular scenario will offer a choice of aides, or even offer to take the less balanced side based on ROAR. Or let it be random.

I can't speak for this Dispatches scenario, as I haven't played it, playtesting or otherwise, but I can support Carl's assertion that they get playtested thoroughly, having done multiple rounds with a scenario for Vic in the past.
 

Gunner Scott

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The Scenario was an unbalanced dog and I got the losing side. Jim won and thats what counts right?


Scott

Stewart, I started a new thread in the main ASL folder, you asked a great question about playtesting and I didn't want to derail the VASLeague thread with my response.

I will say that being able to look at a scenario and determine if you want to play it based on forces allotted, mapboards, and VC to be achieved is a critical skill for playing in tournaments. I would further add that most players who want to play a particular scenario will offer a choice of aides, or even offer to take the less balanced side based on ROAR. Or let it be random.

I can't speak for this Dispatches scenario, as I haven't played it, playtesting or otherwise, but I can support Carl's assertion that they get playtested thoroughly, having done multiple rounds with a scenario for Vic in the past.
 

62nd Army

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I will say that being able to look at a scenario and determine if you want to play it based on forces allotted, mapboards, and VC to be achieved is a critical skill for playing in tournaments. I would further add that most players who want to play a particular scenario will offer a choice of aides, or even offer to take the less balanced side based on ROAR. Or let it be random.

I can't speak for this Dispatches scenario, as I haven't played it, playtesting or otherwise, but I can support Carl's assertion that they get playtested thoroughly, having done multiple rounds with a scenario for Vic in the past.[/QUOTE]

First off I wanted to thank you Carl for the kind words. Next I wanted to clear a few things up.

#1) Dispatches scenarios every last one get played-tested, I know I have play-tested many of them along with the 18 other people who play-tested for issue #36 in which the scenario being discussed was published. Scott you owe Vic Provost and the rest of the play-testers for dispatches a public apology, you can dislike the scenario all you want, criticize the actual strategy needed to win, etc, etc. You really can't call it an "unplay-tested piece of ****". You know full well Dispatches scenarios are play-tested. Sadly, I do not expect an apology from you.

#2) Scott, it is obvious you could not even comprehend the rules before playing, by definition the stream is shallow. (It is not SSRed as any other depth) frozen shallow streams are dry and can be driven thru as if a gully with a bog check. So how can the German tanks "fall thru the ice" as you stated??? Further Vic Provost in his analysis of the scenario gives the German player some sound advice, along with the American side. Gee, an unplay-tested scenario, but Vic takes the time to write up an analysis for it, go figure. Scott we have heard the childish whining BS before from you, you get your ass handed to you because of bad play and poor pre-game prep on your part and it is the scenario's fault or worse you were "sharked". It really is pathetic. Scott, respectful criticism of any scenario is fine, every designer and publisher has released "unbalanced" scenarios and will continue to do so, this includes Dispatches. Your Diatribe on this one is way out of line. Again I expect nothing less from the troll that you are.

#3) Scott, if you bothered to read Vic's intro to the analysis of the scenario you will see that Mark De Vries passed this scenario to Vic for publishing. It was from David Stephenson, Mark's best friend and FtF playing partner, David passed away in 1989, Mark thought it would be a nice show of respect to have it published in Dispatches, Vic agreed and so did every member of the Bunker crew. (Me included) This does not give the scenario free pass on balance, perhaps it is "pro-American" time will tell. However Scott your usual tasteless words take up way to much space on these forums. Learn to play and read the scenario card then come back and offer your opinion on any scenario you wish, until then people will see your whining as the usual unfounded rubbish that it is.

#4) For everyone else reading this, I will call Scott out anytime he bashes a Dispatches scenario like this, Dispatches scenarios have been praised and criticized on these forums, they should be, I have no problem with that, however troll babble and outright lies are not criticism, it is rubbish and I will throw it in the garbage. If you get time play the scenario and judge for yourself.

Regards
Joe
 

Gunner Scott

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Look, Jim won and we picked a bad scenario. End of discussion. You dont like what I have to say, put me on ignore but when I say a scenario sucks, it sucks. BTW, it is a stream and it is frozen. So read the rules. BTW, dont worry, I'll never ever play a dftb scenario ever again.

Scott
 

Stewart

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Hell, I kinda want to play this one now....I like winning as a dog...
Woof!
Sadly I do not possess the mag.
 

ecz

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(...) I will say that being able to look at a scenario and determine if you want to play it based on forces allotted, mapboards, and VC to be achieved is a critical skill for playing in tournaments (...)
I cannot agree more. That said, I politely ask to close here the discussion (or continue it in another thread), not forgotting to say that -as per tournament rules - the VASLeague TD is happy to give assistance to less expert players to find a balanced scenario that fits their skill/ rules knowledge level or decide a good balanced scenario when any agreement is impossible.
thank you
 

esprcorn

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The scenario is from Dispatches from the Bunker - DB106 - the ROAR rating is now German 1 victory with 2 American. It is hard to tell from that.

Since, I was the opponent, I was surprised that Scott gave in. I blew the bridge on the south side, but needed luck to get into position (PB shot from a 75LL tank which battle hardened the leader and the squad passed). I had not played well and believed that he could have made the exit, but the scenario is designed to be a shooting gallery at the end.

For the record, both tanks were well in the back and their only action was to unbutton when the Germans were getting close. I had markers to remind that I could not send infantry behind hexrow T until Turn 6.

Please also note, he was almost half way across with little opposition (although I was keeping them in front of the infantry to buy time) and he still had 6 movement phases. I offered three time to continue.

However, I will take the victory.

JR Brackin
Gunner Scott seems to find a LOT of piece of s h i t scenarios.... Kudo's to you JR for winning in such difficult conditions.
 

Justiciar

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So, Scott lost before the game even started... and didn't even have the chance of being diced?

If the attack is committed to board 32, then (I'm assume by virtue of Scott's example), the game can't be won with this option. So, there really is NO choice for the Germans in this scenario. Therefore, why not just eliminate that aspect of the game which, apparently, causes loss with a sour taste in ones mouth. If you open the wrong door, you lose immediately, if you open the correct door, you can play the game..

I'd still play it out to see how far I could've gotten... that way IF I play it again, I know how far a BOTCHED attack reached and that a concerted attack would do much better.

You have to avoid this "trick" to have a chance? Not part of the fun...that's what $1.99 puzzle books are for.

You should have potential to win in either direction, Make the Bridge destruction NA... just how the Kindling NA scenario fix has been incorporated. Sure the PT group figured this out, but I'm sure it took this same type of loss to show this result. They play the game many times...the ASL community is unlikely to play it as often.
No, Scott lost b/c primarily of 'a' in my post above.

And the board 32 attack is viable IF, repeat IF, you see that the US has not set up a stack of guys on the bridge from the get go. If he has this should indicate to you that he might blow it. It is not a given that the US player will do this set up b/c the to Set the DC dr is not a "give me" dr then it takes you a turn to move the requisite 2 hexes away (in an area where you are hemmed in by an SSR restricting movement). So it is possible for the Germans in two turns to be influencing the area where the DC team is and foul with the DC detonation plans. Such a set up also costs you a 667 to be out of position for awhile, the DC and I committed a 8-1 leader to help with setting the DC.
 

62nd Army

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Look, Jim won and we picked a bad scenario. End of discussion. You dont like what I have to say, put me on ignore but when I say a scenario sucks, it sucks. BTW, it is a stream and it is frozen. So read the rules. BTW, dont worry, I'll never ever play a dftb scenario ever again.

Scott
Scott

Please don't play one again, you lying troll.
 

takai

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Excuse me, gentleman: I feel distinctly uneasy when people are publicly abusing themselves. I'd very much like you to take your childish argument some place else and not to bother this decent thread about the VASLeague. Thank you.
 

rwcallen

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In the top VASLeague, François Boudrenghien's Russians will try to stop the exit of Bob Callen's Germans in FrF64, No Time to Bleed.

[video=youtube;5WlwCltYONc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WlwCltYONc[/video]

Best of luck in our match, François!
 
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Sparafucil3

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Dustin Witjes and I will be playing 113 Liberating Bessarabia. Dusting will be defending. -- jim
 

Fort

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or take a chance crossing the frozen stream and possibly falling through the ice.
I've never seen the scenario. There may be an SSR altering the rules for Ground Snow and Streams. If not, then:

B3.722 TERRAIN: Ground/Deep Snow turns all marsh/mudflat terrain to Open Ground (B16.8), freezes all streams,

B20.7 FRIGID/FROZEN: If a stream is designated as frozen, it is treated as a dry stream regardless of depth...

You never fall through Ice in Streams...in fact, they are no longer Streams when Frozen, they are "Gullies for all purposes"...no Bog Checks to leave, nothing...

B20.41 DRY: If a stream is dry, it does not exist; rather, it is considered a gully for all purposes, and all marsh hexes on the same board are considered mudflats.

P.S. I tend to trust Vic and company with scenario design, balance and playtesting. I'd give it another try as the Axis if I were you.
 
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Gunner Scott

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Thanks Gary for some of the rules clarifications.


Scott

I've never seen the scenario. There may be an SSR altering the rules for Ground Snow and Streams. If not, then:

B3.722 TERRAIN: Ground/Deep Snow turns all marsh/mudflat terrain to Open Ground (B16.8), freezes all streams,

B20.7 FRIGID/FROZEN: If a stream is designated as frozen, it is treated as a dry stream regardless of depth...

You never fall through Ice in Streams...in fact, they are no longer Streams when Frozen, they are "Gullies for all purposes"...no Bog Checks to leave, nothing...

B20.41 DRY: If a stream is dry, it does not exist; rather, it is considered a gully for all purposes, and all marsh hexes on the same board are considered mudflats.

P.S. I tend to trust Vic and company with scenario design, balance and playtesting. I'd give it another try as the Axis if I were you.
 
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