VASL replays?

[Philippe D.]

Someone on the French ASL forum asked whether there are VASL AAR replays, and that made me wonder whether this is something practical under VASL.

For PBEM files, the sequence of log files contains the complete game, so one could just take the whole sequence. Is there a way to put the various logs into a single file, in a sense?

For live games, one can record the entire game; if the game is played without skype or some other form of vocal communication, this could make for a complete replay - otherwise, it takes some discipline on the players' part to type enough information for the replay to be completely understandable.

Also, one thing that might make such replays more interesting is the possibility to add a posteriori comments. Is there a way to do this?


Thinking about it, loading the log, starting a new log and typing in the comments might do the trick - at least when the whole game is in a single log)

 

[witchbottles]

you could use the "load continuation" and do this post-mortem on a game - it would make for a VERY long but mostly usable replay of the game ( quite rough in those areas that got fixed along the way from rules played wrong, etc.)

a LONG time ago, there was a freeware visual basic program that one could use to feed the logfiles into, and it tried to edit them together seamlessly. It didn;t work too well though.

FWIW I have a large collection of finished VASL logfiles from previous PBEM games- I use them occasionally as a reference for an illustration in an ASL-related piece of writing, but I have well over a hundred PBEM games this way ( mind you, some of them go back to VASL 5.8.3 and would cause some fits if loaded into newer VASL versions.)

I also maintain a text / HTML / XML on my own CPU of every AAR I have come across on the interwebs, anywhere, for ASL. This is a hurculean sized folder, and I add to it every week. Stuff in there from as far back as the internet archived ASL Crossroads AAR collection to the most recent CGs and scenarios being put up here on GS. I have begun to organize them by publication, but that is a job FAR from finished, and they represent around 10,000 games +/- recorded for posterity. When finished with organizing them, I plan to build a database that can be linked into by scenario / cg publication and then the name, and place the entire project database up onto the web for all to use and peruse ( but that is a long term project, probably about a year or so out for me.)

If anyone wants a PBEM logfile set to experiment with, drop me a line and I can send you a complete game this way.

KRL, Jon H

 

[Honosbinda]

Someone on the French ASL forum asked whether there are VASL AAR replays, and that made me wonder whether this is something practical under VASL.

For PBEM files, the sequence of log files contains the complete game, so one could just take the whole sequence. Is there a way to put the various logs into a single file, in a sense?

For live games, one can record the entire game; if the game is played without skype or some other form of vocal communication, this could make for a complete replay - otherwise, it takes some discipline on the players' part to type enough information for the replay to be completely understandable.

Also, one thing that might make such replays more interesting is the possibility to add a posteriori comments. Is there a way to do this?


Thinking about it, loading the log, starting a new log and typing in the comments might do the trick - at least when the whole game is in a single log)

On BGG there is a series called 'VASLing with Stew' and uses VASL and onscreen video production to do an AAR/presentation/analysis. I've thought about doing it myself in order to add new content, rather than my usual whimsical diatribe, to the forums about ASL.

Truthfully, I got a bit peeved a couple years ago, when ol' Stephen Stewart, the ASL Champion, decided to analyze one of our casual games VASL games in his series. Without informing me, much less asking permission -- but I called him out on it and it's all nicey-nicey now

My suggestion was that his content would be better if he had both sides commentating, rather than just him. He considered it and we did a bit of a trial run, but after that, he stopped doing these productions for a while.

Lately, however, I've noticed he's brought them back. He is a decent player and does make solid informative commentary in his productions. Anyway check it out at:

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/140884/vasling-stew-episode-6-asl-18-roadblock-vasl-file

 

[Stewart]

Thanks Marc, and Yes Philippe, you would do just as you describe.

You can Piece the logs together FULLY, and then as all of your logs are combined "Start LOG" and replay the Combined log...adding whatever text you wish into the replay.

I simply take it one step further and make a production out of it, trying to make it more interesting, informative, and sometimes fun (although attempts at humor are often fails....)

However, in my videos I forego the fixation on DR's as the concepts of players decisions is my focus, primarily MY decisions as a player.

The files are also on YOUTUBE...which all links in BGG take you to.
I eagerly want to read any comments....

 

[fzmann]

Thanks Marc, and Yes Philippe, you would do just as you describe.

You can Piece the logs together FULLY, and then as all of your logs are combined "Start LOG" and replay the Combined log...adding whatever text you wish into the replay.

I simply take it one step further and make a production out of it, trying to make it more interesting, informative, and sometimes fun (although attempts at humor are often fails....)

However, in my videos I forego the fixation on DR's as the concepts of players decisions is my focus, primarily MY decisions as a player.

The files are also on YOUTUBE...which all links in BGG take you to.
I eagerly want to read any comments....

Stew,
You're YOUTUBE videos where instrumental in getting me back into ASL after a ~23 year absence. I've had to reassemble my kit, but i think i'm done, and have been been playing monthly. I think i now need to explore VASL to the point where I start playing regularly.

Well done, and thanks.

 

[Stewart]

You're Welcome! Glad I lit a spark under your ASL powderkeg...

 

[Doug Leslie]

If you check out YouTube, VASL with Stew is now replaying games in their entirety complete with commentary by both players at the end of each turn. Seem to be two replays so far. Well worth investing the time to see a game played "live".

 

[Stewart]

Finding good and interesting players to create a valuable replay can be a challenge. I have luckily HAD that historically.

The issue with ASL players is that some/most/X don't even want you to listen in on their games without comment.

So, obtaining interesting personalities (it IS for entertainment) can be tricky AT BEST.
Add the fact that the players need good Mics to record, Clean crisp camera setup at times (to improve the entertainment value/not everyone knows what a green screen does), and an Isolated sound free environment is a tall order.

Some NON single people don't have this nor ever will. They might play on their laptops in the family area...I don't know.

I'm fortunate to have a room for ME to isolate. Lighting, mics, cameras, monitors, editing software, etc.

Creating new ways for challenged players to add their thoughts, comments, video... is a huge task...Hence, that's why you only see me on the screen.

Its a lot of fun to do! And I enjoy a lot of it! Just wish I could play more.

 

[Tuomo]

I have often wished for a set of tools that could be used to make plain old VASL log files useful for various kinds of Replays. Off the top of my head, this would include:

1. A log file concatenator, similar to what used to exist. Yes, it didn't always work very well, but it was better than nothing.
2. A bookmarking tool that lets you fast forward or rewind directly to spots in the log that you want to on. Ask Dave Ramsey how much he would appreciate this after seeing him click through the entirety of a log file in Illuminating Rounds #19.
3. An annotation tool that lets both players and a third party insert comments and other helpful screen annotations afterward.
4. Hotlinks to the eASLRB, whenever that becomes available
5. Auto-highlighting of units that fire, so that one can step through the log and visually see what's going on without having to check the Main Window for commentary that tells you who's firing, what the DRMs are, and what firepower is being used. This could be challenging since many games are played via Skype or discord where the player conversation isn't part of the VASL log, so maybe we'd need the players to record the audio and provide a transcript.
6. Some kind of ability to export VASL log files to plain text in a way that streamlines creation of Scenario Replays in hardcopy.

If things like this existed, I'd probably have started an AAR e-magazine by now. Sadly, I think a java person is required to do the part that interfaces with VASL, and that ain't me. But yeah, I think there's huge potential there.

Tom

 

[Pacman Ghost]

Some kind of ability to export VASL log files to plain text in a way that streamlines creation of Scenario Replays in hardcopy.

Many moons ago, I was thinking about doing a scenario replay or something like that, and was going to write a program to do exactly this. With the work I've done on vasl-templates, I've got some understanding of what the save files look like, so if there's interest, I might look at this again.

Auto-highlighting of units that fire, so that one can step through the log and visually see what's going on without having to check the Main Window for commentary that tells you who's firing, what the DRMs are, and what firepower is being used.

This is the hard bit. Maybe every time a die roll is made, pop up a dialog box asking the player to annotate it with the reason for it. An option to record Ctrl-Clicks in the log? We can think up of some nice workflows, but you'd need to get the VASSAL/VASL developers on-board, to add a feature that most people are not going to use ?

 

[Tuomo]

We can think up of some nice workflows, but you'd need to get the VASSAL/VASL developers on-board, to add a feature that most people are not going to use

Don't worry about that. I've got a certain... leverage... in that area.

 

[Pacman Ghost]

Don't worry about that. I've got a certain... leverage... in that area.

Ah, incriminating photos...?

I can look into this, but TBH, I'm unlikely to use such a tool myself, so I'd hate for the work to go to waste.

OTOH, scenario replays were one of the most useful things for me when I was getting back into ASL, and I'm a big believer in putting back in, so I don't mind doing some work to build things like this, if other people will then use them to produce useful content.

 

[Stewart]

I have often wished for a set of tools that could be used to make plain old VASL log files useful for various kinds of Replays. Off the top of my head, this would include:

1. A log file concatenator, similar to what used to exist. Yes, it didn't always work very well, but it was better than nothing.

Not needed.
Simply take your 22 log files from your 1yr PBEM game.
Load LOGFILE1
BEGIN New LOG

Hold [PgDwn] For about 20s. entire log will scroll through.
Load LOGFILE2
Rinse
Repeat.

1. A bookmarking tool that lets you fast forward or rewind directly to spots in the log that you want to on. Ask Dave Ramsey how much he would appreciate this after seeing him click through the entirety of a log file in Illuminating Rounds #19.

Used once in maybe 1000 games.

Watching the Turn Marker progress in the FAST PLAY of the LOGFILE is SIMPLE and effective.
The Bookmarking tool just isn't necessary.

1. An annotation tool that lets both players and a third party insert comments and other helpful screen annotations afterward.

Not necessary.
See 1 above...IF you want to insert notes
FAST FORWARD LOG to spot of concern.
TYPE comments
Continue log.

1. Hotlinks to the eASLRB, whenever that becomes available

eASLRB is coming with the virgins on the unicorn herd.
Not needed...Simply reference the rule if that is your intent in the TEXT of Above

1. Auto-highlighting of units that fire, so that one can step through the log and visually see what's going on without having to check the Main Window for commentary that tells you who's firing, what the DRMs are, and what firepower is being used. This could be challenging since many games are played via Skype or discord where the player conversation isn't part of the VASL log, so maybe we'd need the players to record the audio and provide a transcript.

When you fire units you will see teh PREP/DFF markers appear...DRMs? You should know what they are...the only time you won't is if they AM.
My experience is that players have no clue how to install a simple program.
Recording QUALITY audio is an impossibility....its just a simple fact.
No one wants to listen to bad quality nor an irritating voice.

1. Some kind of ability to export VASL log files to plain text in a way that streamlines creation of Scenario Replays in hardcopy.

NOW This might be useful.
However, you can take the logfile and simply print it out...(I believe)
It will show where you placed the DFF or other counters and the DR etc.

If things like this existed, I'd probably have started an AAR e-magazine by now. Sadly, I think a java person is required to do the part that interfaces with VASL, and that ain't me. But yeah, I think there's huge potential there.
Tom

This hits the NAIL SUPER hard.

I wonder and have wondered for 6 yrs now, why no one puts out quality video playbacks such as mine or live replays (this tech has only been around for the same period of time)
ONLY within the last year have other people done this.

With 1000's of players...My answer is...they don't care to. Too much work. Well, Yes it is.
They are all waiting for someone else to do it. That's why I started doing my own...because that isn't going to happen.

Video recording is FAR easier than the above "old School" AAR format.
You can follow along on your own board if you wish to set it up... far easier.
Certain mechanics must be done by the presenters to allow this...(expand stacks/zoom in/etc.)

However, this requires a learning curve with various media formats, etc. Again, something many people, by nature, refuse to undertake.

I can guarantee, ANYONE out there recording anything NOT on their phones, is spending about the same amount of time to create the video as it took to play it....if not more.

That's the main reason why this hasn't been done...Along with any other various Projects for any level of the community.

I have over 100 videos out.
Views avg 250 in a year...
No one uses the resources.
If they don't like the format of the videos out there...TELL THE CONTENT CREATOR instead of not leaving a comment etc.
Communicate.
Subscribe.

There are 2000 members of the ASLSK FB group.
1/2 of my content are replays of SK material and training sessions...NOT RULES REGURGITATION by tactics.
If you don't know how to search YT for ASLSK...then this type of tool yields no results of value to more than 100 people.

 

[Doug Leslie]

After years of inactivity on the ASL front, reading your stuff on YouTube has reminded me of what a blast it is to play. Kind of tempts me to explore VASL myself as a way of getting back into the swing of things. It's setting aside the time while married that is the problem! Is there a tutorial section on VASL that would allow me to practice the mechanics before embarrassing myself against a live opponent?

 

[Tuomo]

Not needed.
...
Used once in maybe 1000 games.
...
The Bookmarking tool just isn't necessary.
...
Not necessary.
...
Not needed...Simply reference the rule if that is your intent in the TEXT of Above
...
NOW This might be useful.
However, you can take the logfile and simply print it out...(I believe)
It will show where you placed the DFF or other counters and the DR etc.

With respect to your body of work: that's a lot of know-it-all-ism. What I have in mind does make these things necessary/useful/desirable. Sure there might be workarounds with current technology, but if one were to add some capabilities to VASL or develop something to hook into VASL to do these things, IMO it would facilitate more AARs, Scenario Replays, and Tutorials in VASL. Perhaps you've encountered these hurdles and overcome them, and congratulations on that and more power to you, but to me, these things are desirable capabilities that make the effort go from A Bridge Too Far to Doable.

Having done a fair bit of ASL projects myself, I do agree with your point that it's a very small subset of us who are actually willing and able to put in the ton of time necessary to put out products and services. That's just the way it is. Congratulations on your efforts; that's a ton of dedication.

Tom

 

[daveramsey]

Hey guys.. So, chiming in here...

I think I was the one that originally wrote the "log file stitcher-upper" - you're right it never quite worked as well as it could have done - it would have been a lot easier with UTC timestamps in the vasl log file that I parsed (if that did exist I never found it), but instead I had to try to get the code to stitch it up based on dice rolls and movement sequences that were common across both files. It also didn't help that the "right" way to stitch them together, you'd think, would be to order the set of files based on date/time stamps, but unfortunately people often play VASL log files in different time zones, and when you have all of them together, the date order didn't always work out.

In terms of Tom's suggestions, a bookmarking feature would be great to use for the vast minority of us who like to do this kind of thing. Martin and I were literally discussing this, this morning, about how we can make a note of the key moments/decisions for review later, and other than "German turn 3, Prep fire", we didn't have much.

I definitely agree this has "held back" the propagation for replays. I know they're popular (given the space and time that the journal and general magazines gave them) and to be honest, when I set up the archive, I really expected a lot more contributions of full ASL log files, but given how hard it is to do, I can see why they're not happening.

The era of twitch/youtube and interactivity is here - I'd love to see some progression made on this front, and in turn we can do our bit by highlighting the AARs that show great examples of rules/tactics etc.

If someone can hook me up with the VASL dev I can have a chat about re-writing the log-file-stitcher, if that helps?

 

[Stewart]

With respect to your body of work: that's a lot of know-it-all-ism. What I have in mind does make these things necessary/useful/desirable. Sure there might be workarounds with current technology, but if one were to add some capabilities to VASL or develop something to hook into VASL to do these things, IMO it would facilitate more AARs, Scenario Replays, and Tutorials in VASL. Perhaps you've encountered these hurdles and overcome them, and congratulations on that and more power to you, but to me, these things are desirable capabilities that make the effort go from A Bridge Too Far to Doable.

Having done a fair bit of ASL projects myself, I do agree with your point that it's a very small subset of us who are actually willing and able to put in the ton of time necessary to put out products and services. That's just the way it is. Congratulations on your efforts; that's a ton of dedication.

Tom

I understand your desire and COMMEND you on the inquiry.
BUT, Log files essentially replace the need for a hex by hex alphanumeric tracking on paper as the old AAR's required.
IF you have THAT information Automated for you as the LOG does without fail. (manually, one MIGHT misread a designation and have to review where he screwed up)

Also, You COULD create an audio file to be played alongside the logfile as the one or BOTH players could Via skype/discord/voip, record their comments while one of you is the director of the scene. (ala ASL in REAL TIME) You can pause and describe specific things occuring, like USING climbing rules..or explaining how Paradrop occurs, etc. BASED on the format of what you want to present.

The methodology is there. The design on what you want to do is all in your hands.
I simply started by replaying logfiles and giving my thoughts as ONE SIDE of the scenario, and how I, as an average ASL player, reacts/pressures/traps/gets trapped by My opponent. Adding the second brain is difficult at best unless you have a SOLID player that will often help you. By virtue of me playing 105% on VASL, that luxury is limiting at best. My perspective, initially, was to allow players to ENTER my head and hear my thoughts, instead of a normal game that we spectate and hear nothing but rather just see moves....its the THINKING that is the KEY to ASL not the DR's and end result (for the most part)

BUT IR and ASLinREALTIME have the same players.

No Disrespect, but with my body of work, few have recorded as many games and given as many aspects of live game play to the Masses. Is my method the best? I'm the first to tell you NO....I want something more...but it's hard to find the best method in doing that. AGAIN, it takes a special opponent to be patient with your extended Excepts in teaching opportunities.
I've started a variation that I like so far, involving the community of SKers. I hope it evolves into something special....I have no clue...but I'm trying it.


IR and ASLiRT are the only other consistent Content Creators(CC) out there with their own styles. If one viewer dislikes my content, they will likely find what they are looking for with either of the stated CC'ers.

The random game replays have limited Learning opportunities. As we are just spectating. Explaining WHY you might be doing something is the key.
Can you break those up into tutorials? SURE, examples should NOT be Concocted, rather taken from ACTUAL gameplay to make it REAL
What better way to learn than to actually Seeing an OVR done in the middle of a town dodging CCRF attacks throughout the attempt?
ALL of that 'extra" info is when you learn.

"Never move in stacks/Never Prep Fire.....except"
OK....show me in a game when it might be a dubious time to do those....
THAT's where the true SOLDIERS are Forged in Fire....not in rudimentary examples with no life in them.

 

[Stewart]

I really expected a lot more contributions of full ASL log files, but given how hard it is to do, I can see why they're not happening.

If its a matter of creating a full log file of a game, it's not difficult at all.
As many players are forced into VASL, those players are looking at a short learning curve.

Combining Log files is actually fairly simple.
IF you want to add text to the files...you can always go back and do that in review.

I think its not done SIMPLY because of the time and effort needed. "I'd rather be playing" is the answer I usually get in comments.
Just as you said. No effort. It's almost like GAME footage of a sporting event....IF they use it as a learning tool going over their game....they might pick up little nuances in the play of the game that they can change. Again... effort.


It takes time and effort....unfortunately. Grumble Jones/ HKW and others with their AARs...time and effort a lot of both.
with 1000+ players and only 2 are actively doing AAR's to that degree with added flair just shows the motivation. Not saying others don't post AAR's but, those are typically general summations of overall game status.

Manually connecting Log files is simple. Adding comments within them is JUST as simple.

Unless I'm missing something completely... Please let me know. Because I feel that I am missing the boat on this one.

 

[daveramsey]

Unless I'm missing something completely... Please let me know. Because I feel that I am missing the boat on this one.

I think you're assuming that log files are concurrent and run in sequence (ie, we meet up each night and play a turn) - the tool that I wrote specifically tried to stitch together log files of PBEM opponents who frequently interrupt and overwrite moves made by each other, despite the data remaining in the log files when the stitching takes place.

Then you also get the part where player 1 sends a log file, player 2 responds in the middle, revealing a unit but causing no other impact (maybe laying residual that doesn't get crossed) and player 1 responds by saying to carry on the log file anyway. That's quite a tricky one to spot from a code perspective.

 

[Stewart]

I think you're assuming that log files are concurrent and run in sequence (ie, we meet up each night and play a turn) - the tool that I wrote specifically tried to stitch together log files of PBEM opponents who frequently interrupt and overwrite moves made by each other, despite the data remaining in the log files when the stitching takes place.

Then you also get the part where player 1 sends a log file, player 2 responds in the middle, revealing a unit but causing no other impact (maybe laying residual that doesn't get crossed) and player 1 responds by saying to carry on the log file anyway. That's quite a tricky one to spot from a code perspective.

Absolutely!!
I can't imagine the craziness.
Well, I can, but not to code for it.

That is difficult to contend with. Thus, ASL is a bad PBEM game.
Needed sure. But there are different rules for such.
"if X breaks in hex (YY) then send back otherwise continue with the rest of the log" Comments are often necessary JUST to speed up play.
I get frustrated when a unit moves 2MF...."tell me if I see X"
there HAS to be some Middle ground of FTF and PBEM.

But yes...coding for that is a bitch.