VASL 6.4.1 beta1 available now

[DougRim]

Link to 6.4.1 beta1.

Beta means its a test so there may be bugs. If you encounter them, let us know.

Thanks to all of you for sending us info about counter problems. It may seem like we are slow to respond. That’s because we are slow to respond. But here we are. Much bowing and scraping to Zoltan Grose who did the fixing.

Counter fixes:

Remove extra traits from Japanese Crews
Pull CX and Pin trait from jaLDR1 prototype
Counter background for Ahkio
Remove turret from GAS-4M-AA
Wreck MG note
2 missing ATR notes
Black TH typo
Red crew survival changes
Italian vehicle fixes

In addition, there are some code changes as I continue to do bug fixes on the 6.4.0 changes.

This also meant a number of bd file updates and these are going live in the next day or so. Existing versions of these bds will work with this beta but will contain an error or two. The boards to be updated are 3a, 3b, 8a, 8b, 10z, and RBv2.

What isn't here: No changes to the treatment of counters underneath the top counter in a stack. They will be white, as per 6.4.0. It's not that we don't listen to those who don't like (ok, hate) this. It's just that there were equally voices that requested this change (with the same degree of strongly-held feeling!).

Keep those cards and letters going. We can only fix issues we know about.

 

[zgrose]

If I get some time in the near future, I plan to put a toggle in so that people can choose the non-white behavior on their screen.

 

[Maxwelk1]

Hurrah! I've been waiting for this moment ever since I saw your notice in the "fixes". Consider me signed up for this!

 

[Maxwelk1]

FIRST DEMERIT! --
Japanese SMCs still have an extra "HoB" line on top. It has no real function other than frustration abatement, but it does not belong.

 

[zgrose]

Is it a leader?

 

[Maxwelk1]

Is it a leader?

Yes. The Japanese leader counters all seem to have this. Something for Beta 2.

 

[Maxwelk1]

After spending some more time looking at this, we appear to have a lot of problems with consistency as regards to Japanese Leaders --
1-4-9 and 1-0-9 -- both HoBs are Fanatic (OK)

10-2 HoB on top line is empty, the HoB just above "wound" includes ELR, Berserk, Fanatic, and Heroic. Being the highest rated Japanese Leader, it cannot BH.
10-1 Ditto on top line, the HoB line above "wound" includes BH.
10-0 HoB on top line includes BH, ELR, Berserk, and Fanatic, but not heroic. "Heroic" gets its own special line just above "wound".
9-1 HoB on top line is empty, the HoB just above "wound" includes BH, ELR, Berserk, and Fanatic
9-0 HoB on top line includes BH, ELR, Berserk, and Fanatic, the HoB just above "wound" picks up "Heroic".
8-0 HoB on top line is empty, the HoB just above "wound" includes BH, ELR, Berserk, and Fanatic.
8+1 HoB on top line is empty, the HoB just above "wound" includes BH, ELR, Berserk, Fanatic, and Heroic.

 

[zgrose]

jaLDR1 seems to have an extra HoB trait associated with it much like the Crews did. All I did was pull the extra CX and Pin traits for jaLDR1 so it doesn't surprise me that they had extra stuff that had to be pulled, too. Thanks.

 

[Maxwelk1]

Hmmm...

I just caught these "HoB" lines changing from one look at them to the next.
This might be above my pay grade

 

[Will Fleming]

If I get some time in the near future, I plan to put a toggle in so that people can choose the non-white behavior on their screen.

If there is a toggle, it should be similar to the current one for concealment. "Let opponent unconceal my units".

Perhaps "Show only white counters under my stacks to my opponent." or similar?

My suggestion would be a notification. "Player XXX inspecting stack in hex A1." when they fly over or expand a stack.

 

[zgrose]

That might be a noble pursuit for someone in the future but for now it will be just toggling the white vs filled render path.

 

[Binko]

What isn't here: No changes to the treatment of counters underneath the top counter in a stack. They will be white, as per 6.4.0. It's not that we don't listen to those who don't like (ok, hate) this. It's just that there were equally voices that requested this change (with the same degree of strongly-held feeling!).

I've yet to see anybody here on the public forum make a rational case in favor of the white counters in a stack. So where are these voices who wanted this change? The people who are against are posting but I can only assume that the people who are for it are working behind the scenes.

And I still don't understand what is gained? We are only talking about unconcealed stacks since no data is revealed in concealed stacks. It's true that whiting out the bottom counters in an unconcealed stack will prevent an opponent from peering at the bottom of the counters and trying to puzzle out some useful information. But he can STILL just wave his mouse over the stack and see all the unconcealed counters in the stack in their entirety?

So what is the rationale behind the white counters in the stack? Any opponent who is going to make a conscious effort to peer at the tiny lines at the bottom of the lower counters in a stack is certainly going to be willing to wave a mouse over a stack. In fact, it's quite easy to accidentally wave a mouse over stacks without intending it.

 

[Will Fleming]

For me, it is more the black bars (assault fire, spray fire, ELR5) information that I don't think should be displayed. If the current 'white' counters at the bottom were colored, but did not show any of the text, that is fine by me. I don't believe I ever complained about the counters until the bars became clearly visible. i.e. when they were just colored to match the nationality, but a few pixels of info was hidden.

The problem is as you say, free stack inspection.

I generally play with the 'fly out on mouse over' option disabled so I don't cheat my opponent by getting free LOS's. Big difference having to mouse over a stack to see (which can be avoided by my 12 year old son once taught) as opposed to having it there right in your face.

 

[zgrose]

I don't believe I ever complained about the counters until the bars became clearly visible. i.e. when they were just colored to match the nationality, but a few pixels of info was hidden.

Do you happen to remember when the counter stack offset was changed? AFAIK, there has never been a version that has colored stacks and doesn't have visible counter graphics unless we made the stack offset really small.

 

[Binko]

For me, it is more the black bars (assault fire, spray fire, ELR5) information that I don't think should be displayed. If the current 'white' counters at the bottom were colored, but did not show any of the text, that is fine by me. I don't believe I ever complained about the counters until the bars became clearly visible. i.e. when they were just colored to match the nationality, but a few pixels of info was hidden.

The problem is as you say, free stack inspection.

I generally play with the 'fly out on mouse over' option disabled so I don't cheat my opponent by getting free LOS's. Big difference having to mouse over a stack to see (which can be avoided by my 12 year old son once taught) as opposed to having it there right in your face.

In other words the only way that making the counters under a stack white would have any relevance would be if both players also disabled the fly out on mouse over option?

To my mind a better option is for everybody to accept that VASL is not going to be an exact high-security replica of tournament level ASL. There are a number of areas in VASL player where more information is available to the player than would be true in live play. There are also a number of areas where basic levels of trust are required.

But like so many things on Gamesquad it's highly unlikely that any kind of consensus will ever be reached on this (or any other) issue. So I suppose Zoltan's added option will be the best solution. Personally I wouldn't play against an opponent who wanted me to white out the stack counters and disable the mouse-over flyout. Giving up basic playability and making the board look like crap is too high a price to pay in an attempt to obscure tiny amounts of potential information that will only rarely have any kind of effect on play.

 

[zgrose]

It was white counters for years so it's clearly playable. Whether or not it looks like crap is in the eye of the beholder. All my counter stacks in real life are mostly white.

The default will be colors on because people have become accustomed to it.

If someone wants to take a crack at a more comprehensive solution, the source is available.

 

[jrv]

Perhaps a compromise would be to use a brown-grey color/pattern rather than white, rather like counter edges. At least part of the problem with white is that it eagerly draws the eye. A more neutral color/pattern might not be so noticible.

JR

 

[Will Fleming]

Seems like this is a religious argument, but I feel that VASL should represent the way the game should be played as per the rule book. It currently matches that closer than the proposed alternative.

Why change VASL to make it *less* like ASL than it currently is?

 

[zgrose]

Seems like this is a religious argument, but I feel that VASL should represent the way the game should be played as per the rule book. It currently matches that closer than the proposed alternative.

Why change VASL to make it *less* like ASL than it currently is?

I'm not sure it is a religious argument, but there is certainly an design pattern that has wavered from one side to the other in VASL but in no organized fashion. I like to think of it as the "digital cardboard" vs "digital version" design argument.

In the "digital cardboard" design pattern, VASL is simply a virtual replacement for cardboard. Actions that you take in cyberspace mimic physical actions you take in meatspace. In the "digital version" design pattern, VASL takes advantage of the digital game to provide cardboard alternatives or shortcuts. A simple example would be Berserk/Fanatic/Wounds/Moved. Here VASL augments the counter to have metadata appear on the counter itself. Can be super handy.

I think over the years VASL has been changed to be *more* unlike ASL is currently (aka physically) and it's had its drawbacks. The BFP Polish SMC are a great example if you know how the counters are setup and this stacking issue is a great example of an issue added to VASL that doesn't exist *at all* in meatspace because you can't spread your counters 1/16th of an inch on top of each other.

I hope to take the lessons learned into the VASL module for VASSAL 4, if it ever comes about, but my goal in the meantime is just keeping the content relevant and useful. The toggle should do that in that the people that really, really care about this issue can do something about it and the people that don't can have pretty(er) graphics.

 

[von Marwitz]

If I get some time in the near future, I plan to put a toggle in so that people can choose the non-white behavior on their screen.

The problem is acutally not 'non-white/white' but 'MG-underscores & squad underscors visible/not visible" in the non-top units.

The optimum result would be that the non-top counters of a stack are displayed in color (non-white) but the said underscores not showing (because the latter gives away information that the opponent is not always allowed to have).

von Marwitz