Various Rules Questions

[cohort]

My game the other night was unusual because both the number of rules questions that came up and because how basic some of them were. Anyways, any help in resolving them would be appreciated.

1. A unit moves from 4L7 to 4L6. (see image) A snap shot from 4O10 is attempted.
1a. Is the LOS clear from P10 to the K7-L6-L7 vertex?
1b. Is the LOS clear from P10 to the L6-L7-M7 vertex?
1c. Can the snap shot be made?



2. What is the cost to enter hex 4I9? (see image) Does the cost differ because the hexside crossed contains woods or is open ground, for example H9 vs. J9?

3. A unit expends one mf to enter a woods hex using a road and then stops. After the resolution of any first fire, is the unit considered to occupy the woods and eligable to receive the +1 TEM for any final fire, even if the LOS is traced along the road and doesn't cross the woods depiction?

4. This is similar to 3 above. A squad enters a building hex using a road and crossing a crest line going up one level. It expends the road rate of 2 mf and stops.
4a. After the movement phase, is the unit considered to occupy the building with no further expenditure of mf?
4b. Is it accurate to characterize the situation as the squad is moving into the building just as much by using the road at 2 mf as in not using the road at 4 mf? The only difference is that by using the road, the squad is vulnerable to a special type of fire as outlined in A4.132. It's similar to a snap shot in that you can be attacked while moving into a new hex and can't fully get the benefit of the new terrain .

5. An AFV ends its movement in an open ground hex with an broken enemy leader. The hex is marked with a cc counter per the overrun flow chart. Is the leader held in melee or may it rout out of the hex?

 

[jrv]

2) 4MF, assuming infantry and not via bypass. No one has ever attempted to enter such a hex with a vehicle (EXC: bypass). It does not matter from which direction the hex is entered.
3) The unit definitely receives the woods TEM afterward. The unit will also receive the woods TEM for a DFF shot if the LOS crosses the woods depiction.
4) The unit occupies the building with either MF expenditure (e.g. for VC purposes). You characterization in 4b is correct. Even if the unit broke while entering using the road from a shot that traced LOS to the road depiction, the unit would have occupied the building for all purposes. Even with special shots such as snap shot or special LOSes such as to road crossing hexside, the unit fully enters the hex in question. There is no "sublocation" on the hexside in those cases.
5) The leader can and in fact must rout. The CC marker is used to indicate that there is no melee, which is the only thing that would hold the broken unit in the hex.

JR

 

[jrv]

1) is a question to which I am not sure of the answer. If the hexes in question had obstacles in them and so were bypassable, the k7-l6-l7 vertex could be attacked when bypassing L7 (unless the LOS crossed the obstacle in L7 of course) but not L6. I believe that LOS to either side of the vertex is enough to allow the snap shot, but I am not 100% sure. There are several Q&A on A8.15, but none seems to cover this particular situation. If you ask a Q&A, you might also ask about a unit entering a gully. Can it be attacked by a snap shot as it crosses the hexside to enter the gully (assuming the firer does not have LOS INTO the gully)?

JR

 

[mgmasl]

If the hexside is considered in the exited hex LOS is clear but if considered in the hex moved into LOS to the farthest vertex is blocked.. Because movement is from 2nd level to 2nd level I think all vertex are considered at 2nd level.. Ie are hexside considered in the hex exited or entered, and is the vertex at the level of the terrain depicted or at the level of the hex entered or exited

 

[jrv]

If the hexside is considered in the exited hex LOS is clear but if considered in the hex moved into LOS to the farthest vertex is blocked.. Because movement is from 2nd level to 2nd level I think all vertex are considered at 2nd level.. Ie are hexside considered in the hex exited or entered, and is the vertex at the level of the terrain depicted or at the level of the hex entered or exited

I'm not clear what you are saying here.

JR

 

[bprobst]

Question 1 is very interesting. Curiously the answer is probably different whether or not we consider Open Ground to be "Inherent Terrain" or not. Although at first blush it's harder to think of anything more "inherent" than the open ground portion of an open ground hex, the reality is that it doesn't meet the B.6 definition, nor does B1 ever define it as such (and nor is it marked as such on the Terrain Chart).

Since it's not Inherent Terrain, then the provisions of B10.1 apply: "Other terrain {i.e., not Inherent} ... is at the higher level throughout the entire depiction of the terrain in question, even if it appears to be rising from the lower level portion of the hill hex." By this rule, every part of 4L7, including the vertices, is at L2. Since no part of the LOS from 4P10 to the vertices in question violates the basic restrictions of B10.2 DIFFERENT LEVEL LOS ("A lower level unit may trace a LOS into only the initial Crest Line hexside of each level above it.") the conclusion must be that the LOS exists and the Snap Shot may be taken.

But wait ...!

B10.1 has had some very important errata changing the impact on LOS of Inherent vs. non-Inherent. In particular (new) Footnote 3A adds the very important provision: "When players can so agree, we encourage them to use the actual Crest Lines to determine LOS." Now, the errata (and that Footnote provision) are primarily discussing the impact of other terrain in the hex obscuring (or not) the crest line, but the rule (and the underlying idea behind the rule) is straight-forward: if you can see where the Crest Line runs, use the Crest Line for LOS. Obviously in this case the Crest Line is not obscured in any way! So the provisions of the errata kick in ("... the actual Crest Line is used to determine LOS as is the case with Inherent Terrain"). By that token the 4L6-L7-M7 vertex is not visible from 4P10 and so the Snap Shot may not be taken. Unless, of course, the players do not wish to be "encouraged" by the Footnote and ignore its provisions.

I have to say I would never even have considered the possibility of a Snap Shot in this situation. Kudos to whoever thought of it!

 

[von Marwitz]

Question 1 is very interesting.

I have to say I would never even have considered the possibility of a Snap Shot in this situation. Kudos to whoever thought of it!

This.

Could be one well worth of a Q&A IMHO.

von Marwitz

 

[fanatic+1]

Given that a wall does not block same level Los to a vertex of the far side of the same hex, imo the snap shot is allowed by the same logic; I.e. The firing unit has Los to the entire hex of the target unit is exiting, including the far hexside. I know, what does logic have to do with it?

 

[fanatic+1]

A8.15 explicitly allows a snap shot even if the hexside crossed is part of a blind hex. That seems to permit the snap shot imo.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Some Q&A even suggest (indirectly) that even if the unit was in hex P8 and it moved to P7 - it could be targeted by a Snap Shot from P10 - even though the unit would be in P7 when attack, since the hexside is in LOS from P10.

 

[Philippe R]

First Fire are resolved following MF/MP expenditure. Here, 1 MF is spent in L6, not in L7. Therefore target is in L6... Only few cases ( Bog related mainly, Rowhouse bypass) implie MF/MP spent in the departure hex...

 

[klasmalmstrom]

In the case of a Snap Shot the LOS is drawn to the hexside - not the hex the unit has moved into (the rules even spell out the hex moved into can be a blind hex). There are Q&A that say that it is enough to allow a Snap Shot - I am not sure I agree wit those Q&A (but that is another matter).

 

[Philippe D.]

The question of which hex the target is in when a Snap Shot occurs is an important one, not just for LOS purposes - range is just as much a factor, and I'd agree with Philippe R. on this: the situations in which the MF/MP expenditure is considered to occur in the starting location are few and far between, and are normally explicitly mentioned in the rulebook. Therefore, I'd say LOS is traced to the hexside, but the target should be considered to be in the hex it's entering.

Now, I'm not familiar enough with the details of the Snap Shot rules to be sure that this implies L7 blocks LOS to the vertex/hexside in the current case.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The question of which hex the target is in when a Snap Shot occurs is an important one, not just for LOS purposes - range is just as much a factor, ...

It is important for range purposes, but not so much for LOS purposes during a Snap Shot attack. E.g., the rules specifically mention that a Snap Shot can be taken vs a unit entering a blind hex, so clearly in that situation that hex the unit is considered to be in does not impact the LOS to the hexside.

Therefore, I'd say LOS is traced to the hexside, but the target should be considered to be in the hex it's entering.

It is, and yes the unit is in the hex entered - the latter is clear from the rules. IMO, it is the LOS drawn to the hexside that is the conundrum.