Variable ammunition, RPGs, Carl Custaf and others

TDR

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Weapons such as the RPG7 and Carl Gustaf can have different ammunition types.
Is it possible to have this represented as a single weapon with selectable ammunition or not?

The current operational use of the CG in Australia has various rounds available as a normal ammo load.
 

Pat Proctor

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There is a long history behind this design decision, but the bottom line is, no, there is no variable ammunition.

We built this, in prototype form, into the ATF Engine while designing the AATF Engine. What we found was that, when you streamlined the process, so that the player did not have to micromanage ammunition usage, you ended up with the exact same simulation results as not modeling it at all. Thus, we chose to drop this layer of complexity.

We DO include this complexity for artillery 1st because the weapon effects are so radically different and second because, well, I'm an artilleryman :) What can I say. President's privillege....
 

TDR

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We DO include this complexity for artillery 1st because the weapon effects are so radically different and second because, well, I'm an artilleryman :) What can I say. President's privillege....
OK Special privilege!!!

So the short version of answer to my question is make seperate versions with different ammo. The CG is the main one I am looking at with its different ammo types.
 

Pat Proctor

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There are different ways of handling this.

For our games, we just set pKs such that we assume the gunners are always using the optimal ammo.

If different crews carry different ammo load outs, you might make an AT and AP team with different weapons of different pKs.

You could also make 2 weapons of different ammo for one team, but you might get back to back shots with no delay, which is a little unrealistic.

These are just a few ways to handle the issue.
 

TDR

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The main area I am looking at is the Carl Gustaf, (M3 MAAWS for the US), as it has a few issues and I don’t think it can be resolved with a few pK changes.
It would not be too bad if all rounds had the same range but the effective ranges and fire techniques differ.

The HE AP (shrapnel) round is used in Afghanistan, normally air burst, as well as the plain HE, and HEDP.

HE Shrapnel round - "lobbed" trajectory - range 1,000m - fused for impact or airburst.
HE round - effective range against personnel in the open of 1,100 m.
smoke round - range of about 1,300 m
HEDP round detonate on impact or one tenth of a second afterwards.- Effective range 1,000 m against broad soft targets such as infantry in the open, 500 m against stationary targets, and 300 m against moving targets.
HEAT round, rocket-assisted, - effective range of about 700 m , (400 m against moving targets)

Could this be treated as a “small” artillery piece and then select the ammo accordingly?
Or is it a case that once it becomes an arty piece it has no immediate DF ability?
The big variance is in the ranges. Since the main ammo supply is carried in the Bushmasters the team will pull out what they want for that contact.
The weapon has sort of become a mini immediate direct fire infantry operated arty piece.

The RPG7s are not a problem with its varied ammunition/grenade.
 

Pat Proctor

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If you make it arty, it will not direct fire. You could make the unit both direct AND indirect fire. But you would continue to fire DF even while firing IF rounds.
 

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If you make it arty, it will not direct fire. You could make the unit both direct AND indirect fire. But you would continue to fire DF even while firing IF rounds.
Somerthing like setting BOS flags to Arty and AT and Dismount?
 

Pat Proctor

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The BOS flags only effect how the AI uses the vehicle, not the functioning of the vehicle individually.
 

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If you make it arty, it will not direct fire. You could make the unit both direct AND indirect fire. But you would continue to fire DF even while firing IF rounds.
OK, beside setting the BOS flags for the AI, and naturally setting the Special attributes, how is this done?
 

Pat Proctor

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Just create an indirect fire attribute and FDC attribute for the Gustav and give it an appropriate ammo. The model the weapon normally, with appropriate amount of ammo for the DF role. You will have to plan fire missions to shoot the indirect fire mode.
 

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I've been following this thread with interest.

Nick,
I think in RT, CP has done what is being suggested with some of the vehicle mounted Mk19 AGLs

Also as an experiment, I added an RPO to fire team RPKs. One as a direct fire weapon, the other as an Indirect. I gave the indirect weapon similar stats to that which fire teams have for IF smoke , mainly because I didn't know of anything that was any more acurate for me to model it on.

The results were that the team using the direct fire RPO almost never used it where as the IF round got used with some quite nasty effects.
I think the RPO has been used by the Russians as a stand of anti sniper weapon in Afghanistan.
The IF route would seem to replicate this.
 

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Thanks Pat for the direction on this.

EDs.
I had a feeling this might be the end result.. Sounds useful..

With the Carl Gustaf though it is considered as AT weapon, (SRAAW) it is carried at infantry platoon level in the mech and motor Inf pls, ie it is normally in the vehicle for when needed. In Afghanistan one main use is not AT but AP, with the HE shrapnel round as an airburst. This does not ignore the use of the other rounds available.
This would reflect, from my understanding, as more of an IF weapon than a DF weapon.
(This is a bit like giving infantry arty assets to play with.. :laugh:)

An AGL would be similar as you suggest.
 

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This may be off topic but how could I simulate a cruse missle strike from a ship?

Mark
Very simple. Create a weapon called "Tomahawk", give it the range and attributes of a tomahawk missile, then add the specials "burst radius" and "discreet time of flight" (I think they fly at 400 mph or something), add the weapon to your ship and, voila!

Now, if you want to control it to the extent of which target to fire when, then I would create it as an IF ammunition type and give it a "PGM" attribute, then give the ship a turret with the IF attribute and set the parameters, add the ammo to the ship and again, voila!
 
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Pat Proctor

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I would choose the IF ammunition type and forego the PGM. DF isn't the best route because cruise missiles are fired way over the horizon at stuff a ship can't see. PGM might not be the right method because these missiles are not laser guided, but GPS guided. I would go with just a straight DPICM cruise missile round. The firing ship should have a really high accurace for its IF capability, and the Missile should have a big blast radius and a very large equivalent round number. This will simulate the 1 shot, 1 kill quality of the Tomahawk without requiring the laser observer.
 
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