Using bypass to enter the board

Pacman Ghost

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The German 4-6-7 wants to enter by bypassing the woods in V0 (one hexside only), then into U1, thus avoiding an attack by the Russian 4-4-7.

10798

A2.51 seems fairly clear this is OK:
[O]ffboard units may move normally on the Offboard map so as to enter the mapboard on a hex which is not adjacent to the one they set up in ... All terrain on an Offboard setup map is considered Open Ground except for off-map half-hexes which are butted against a half-hex of some other terrain type and hex rows Y, Q, and I which are road hexes if the board is butted lengthwise.

A2.51 doesn't say explicitly what the other half of the hex looks like, but A2.6 describes exit half-hexes as mirror images of the on-board half-hex, which is reasonable.

However, there is an SSR that says that the Germans must enter on or between hexrows V and Z. Is this move allowed i.e. is the 4-6-7 considered to have entered on V0 or U1?
 
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Larry

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The whole hex is in play (V0), so bypass along the V0/W0 hexside appears permissible. But are both vertices of V0/W0 out of LOS? The first is not clear.

If the whole of V0 is not in play, then there is no hexside to bypass.
 

Pacman Ghost

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The whole hex is in play (V0), so bypass along the V0/W0 hexside appears permissible. But are both vertices of V0/W0 out of LOS? The first is not clear.
This is an another question. There is no LOS between on-board and off-board, so assuming the bocage wasn't there, could the Russian 4-4-7 take a snapshot on the V0/W0 hexside? You say the whole of V0 is in play, but is the bottom half of that hex considered to be on-board or off-board?

But whether or not there is a LOS doesn't affect my original question. I'm not asking what is the best way to get the 4-6-7 on-board, I'm asking is this move allowed, given the requirement that it enter between hexrows V and Z.

If the whole of V0 is not in play, then there is no hexside to bypass.
Pieces can move around even off-board, so there are definitely hexes there, and the half of V0 that is on-board is surely mirrored off-board, so bypass would appear to be allowed. But is it considered to have entered on V0 or U1?

On the one hand, when you bypass an obstacle, you are considered to be in that hex, in this case V0, thus satisfying the entry requirement.

But on the other hand, real world physics suggests that you are moving along the hexside, which is off-board, and you only appear on-board when you move into U1, thus violating the entry requirement.

I rather suspect that, yet again, the ASLRB will trump real-world common sense :rolleyes:, it just feels a bit icky :)
 

Pacman Ghost

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But whether or not there is a LOS doesn't affect my original question.
Hmmm, on further reflection, maybe it does... :-/

I suspect the correct interpretation is that the move is allowed, because it's considered to be in the V0 hex as it's bypassing the woods.

I also rather suspect that a snapshot is not allowed, because the hexside being bypassed is off-board, and there's no LOS between on- and off-board (again, assuming the bocage is not there).

Which leads to the situation where the entering unit is simultaneously on-board (for the purpose of the entry requirement) and off-board (for the purpose of disallowing the snapshot).

So, to be consistent, the whole of V0 must be considered to be on-board, which allows the snapshot, and also answers my original question: the move is clearly allowed since the whole of V0 is on-board (even though half of it is not actually there)...?
 
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klasmalmstrom

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I also rather suspect that a snapshot is not allowed, because the hexside being bypassed is off-board, and there's no LOS between on- and off-board (again, assuming the bocage is not there).
A Snap Shot can only be taken as a unit crosses a hexside anyway - not when it uses bypass along a hexside.
 

Philippe D.

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First, if you're not constrained as to the hex you're entering from, moving normally to U0 (offboard) then entering in U1 is possible, and not subject to any problems.

If you setup in W0, or cannot enter the board in U1, then I'd say the vertex V0-U0-U1 should be considered a possible shot (you're in V0 after all), but then I haven't checked the rulebook on this.
 

Pacman Ghost

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A Snap Shot can only be taken as a unit crosses a hexside anyway - not when it uses bypass along a hexside.
Ah, I didn't realize that, although the issue still exists if e.g. the unit comes on-board from U0 to V0, crossing the hexside that is off-board. But I don't want to derail my own thread and distract from the original question :)
 
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Pacman Ghost

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First, if you're not constrained as to the hex you're entering from, moving normally to U0 (offboard) then entering in U1 is possible, and not subject to any problems.
I am constrained as which hex I can enter on, that's the whole point behind my question. The SSR says that I must enter on/between hexrows V and Z, so my question is: if I bypass the woods in V0, along a hexside that's nominally off-board, and then into U1, does that meet the SSR requirements?

The 2 choices I see there being are:
  1. Yes, it's OK to do this, because when you bypassed the woods, you are considered to be in the hex containing the obstacle i.e. V0, therefore you entered on/between V and Z, so it's OK.
  2. No, you can't do this because the hexside you bypassed is off-board, and the first time you appeared on-board (i.e. actually On. The. Board.) was in U1, thus violating the entry requirement.
My feeling is (1) is correct, although it feels a bit sleazy. The crux of the issue is how the bottom half of V0 is to be treated. It seems reasonable that it be a mirror-image of the top half, but is V0 considered to be a normal full hex that just happens to be only partially drawn, or is it a half-on-board, half-off-board hybrid, with all the problems that this would appear to bring.

You might argue that it's just a half-hex, as drawn, and there's nothing on the other side, but that's not really right, because there are all these implied off-board hexes that units can use to move off-board. The problem is when you have a hex that straddles both off-board and on-board, when and how does it transition from off- to on-?
 
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Philippe D.

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My take would be (1), as it has been clearly established that when bypassing a hex, you are considered to be in that hex. I didn't find anything in the rules preventing bypass of an entry hex.

What might be open to interpretation (in my mind) is whether you might be attacked on the other vertex - the one that is adjacent to two offboard hexes. Same goes for concealment loss due to LOS to this vertex.
 

turlusiflu

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IMO, as per the SSR, the unit has to enter the map between hexrows V and Z. So if the unit makes a bypass on the hexside V0/U0, it is still offside the map and thus not entering the map by the enter zone yet, so it cannot move to U1 from there.

It might instead make bypass on the hexside V0/U1, that is already inside the map and between the entry limits, and then move to U1 from there.
 

klasmalmstrom

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IMO, as per the SSR, the unit has to enter the map between hexrows V and Z. So if the unit makes a bypass on the hexside V0/U0, it is still offside the map and thus not entering the map by the enter zone yet, so it cannot move to U1 from there.
I think it's on the map in hex V0 at the far vertex - V0-U0-U1.
 
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