US Navy in Korea

[Brian W]

I was poking around the F9F Panther's history (the main Navy jet of the KW) and found this bit of interesting history. I must say, I had never heard of the fight, and I grew up reading every pilot bio I could get my hands on. The F9F, which I understood to be a pretty poor example of a jet aircraft, taking on a furball of Russian piloted MiG-15s and bringing down four of them is pretty good flying. And says something for four 20mm cannon over six .50cal M2s. . .

On 18 November 1952, Lt. Royce Williams of VF-781, flying off USS Oriskany destroyed four MiGs in a single, 35-minute combat. This unique feat has remained little-known, due to the involvement of National Security Agency (NSA) – the existence of which was then top secret – in planning the mission.[10] Following intelligence provided by the NSA, the MiGs had been intercepted during a series of air strikes against the North Korean port of Hoeryong, across the mouth of the Tumen River from the major Soviet naval base at Vladivostok. After losing contact with his wingman, Williams found himself alone in a dogfight with six MiG-15s; when he was able to land on Oriskany, his Panther was found to have sustained 263 hits from by cannon shells or fragments, and to be beyond repair. Williams' victories were even more notable in that all four MiGs were flown by Soviet Naval Aviation pilots: Russian sources confirmed Williams' claims, 40 years later, stating that the pilots lost were Captains Belyakov and Vandalov, and Lieutenants Pakhomkin and Tarshinov

 

[Kenneth P. Katz]

I would not characterize the F9F as a poor aircraft at all.* But it designed at a time when the handling qualities deficiencies imposed by swept wings were incompatible with carrier compability, so it did not have the performance of the F-86 or MiG-15.

* Or put in another way, all jets of that era were dangerous to fly and deficient in many ways, but the F9F was not particularly bad.

I was poking around the F9F Panther's history (the main Navy jet of the KW) and found this bit of interesting history. I must say, I had never heard of the fight, and I grew up reading every pilot bio I could get my hands on. The F9F, which I understood to be a pretty poor example of a jet aircraft, taking on a furball of Russian piloted MiG-15s and bringing down four of them is pretty good flying. And says something for four 20mm cannon over six .50cal M2s. . .

 

[Bob Walters]

I would not characterize the F9F as a poor aircraft at all.* But it designed at a time when the handling qualities deficiencies imposed by swept wings were incompatible with carrier compability, so it did not have the performance of the F-86 or MiG-15.

* Or put in another way, all jets of that era were dangerous to fly and deficient in many ways, but the F9F was not particularly bad.

Yes but then came the F9F Cougar, alas it was too late for Korea.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

The way I would put it is not that the F9F-2/3/4/5 was bad or mediocre, but that the MiG-15 and to a slightly lesser extent the F-86 were particularly exceptional aircraft for that time. A lot has to do with timing as well.

Why timing? Let us illustrate with a pair of examples, Italy and the USSR. In the mid 30s ('33-'37) the Italians and Soviets were producing the best fighters, the Italians had the Fiat CR 32 biplane and the Soviets had the I-15 biplane and the I-16 monoplane, indeed the first mass produced cantilever monoplane. Yet by WW2, a mere 4 years later they were almost, but not quite, junk. It's not that the Italian or Soviet designers went to sleep in the meantime but that they had to start their new development cycle out of synch with the rest of the world. If WW2 had started 2-4 years later, it's totally not inconceivable that the Soviets and Italians might have had the edge again, albeit likely a smaller edge.

The MiG-15 and F-86 were lucky that they had matured just in time for the KW. No matter how great a design team you have and the required resources, sometimes lucky timing is the difference between a 'great' and an 'also served'.

Another consideration is that all aircraft have a best combination of speed and altitude. For a good chunk of the KW the MiG-15 and MiG-15 bis had the high slot pretty much to themselves, at least until the F-86F variant came along and roughly matched it. The straight wing F9F would have had some advantage lower down and at slower speeds. Sometimes you can pick your optimal environment or have fate pick it for you.

 

[Brian W]

I think the takeaway is that the man or woman behind the wheel makes a big difference. And a lot of luck--surviving after over 200 holes have been punched in your plan by 23mm cannon is a bit of luck. The Soviet pilots must have let themselves be dragged down into a fight that the Panther could use its advantages.

And it's a shame the F-86 wasn't armed with 4x20mm like the Panther was. They would have downed more MiGs.

 

[Brian W]

This has encourage me to buy a model of the F9F for a future build.