US Army Ammunition and Pioneer Platoon

[21Z5M]

I have the 1944 FM covering the Platoon but it doesn't say if they were Infantry 6-6-6 or Engineers 6-6-7. They do have some light engineer training.

 

[Srynerson]

I have the 1944 FM covering the Platoon but it doesn't say if they were Infantry 6-6-6 or Engineers 6-6-7. They do have some light engineer training.

(A) The 6-6-6 versus 6-6-7 distinction is really a design-for-effect decision more than anything since you certainly can find scenarios with 6-6-7s mixed into regular US Army formations, typically to reflect more veteran troops or particularly well-led troops.

(B) That said, based on the information here for "Ammunition & Pioneer Platoon," I question whether a firepower and range of "6" would be appropriate for them. That source says that only the NCOs in the platoon carried rifles and the other men carried carbines. No reference to BARs or SMGs. Seems like they might be better represented as 5-4-6 second line troops.

 

[21Z5M]

I agree, the TO&E 7-16 only shows two Bazookas. So SSR would up the second line troop status to first line? thanks

 

[Srynerson]

I agree, the TO&E 7-16 only shows two Bazookas. So SSR would up the second line troop status to first line? thanks

I'm not sure you need to say that they are "first line" troops in ASL terms. NRBH, but I don't think that American first line squads have any abilities that American second line squads lack other than a one higher inherent smoke exponent. Assuming that's correct, if you make them first line by SSR, it wouldn't make much of a difference in gameplay terms since they would presumably still ELR to 5-3-6 green squads. If I'm wrong about there being no difference in abilities between first and second line American troops though, then yes, use an SSR to say that these guys are treated as first line squads for all purposes under the American nationality rules and that their smoke exponent is 3.

 

[Vinnie]

As a player I would recommend against this. It is frustrating to have to recall counter adjustments during a game. This would be especially true where there are different sqds which may appear the same. For instance, if you have 2nd line engineer sqds and 1st line infantry, there is a good chance that the infantry will elr to second line and then you are just asking for confusion.

Using amended second line may be viable when they are the only sqds in play but otherwise, I'd want a very good reason to go down this path.

 

[M.Koch]

The typicall pioneer toys ( FTs and DCs ) need elite troops to be used without drawbacks... Plus
the infantry smoke exponet raised by two makes the difference...Keeping this in mind i see no problem
in using 1st line/ 2nd line units as (assault) pioneers...

 

[dlazov]

You could use a nice mix of say:

7-4-7 x1, 6-6-7 x2
or
6-6-7 x2, 6-6-6 x1

 

[21Z5M]

Srynerson was correct about the fire power issue most squad members had M1 carbines with no inherent sw (BAR) to boost their firepower. They were trained to do light engineer tasks which did include demo work, seems like it should be something like 5-4-7.

 

[Mr Incredible]

Looking at this:

http://www.vftt.co.uk/vfttpdf/vftt26_27.pdf

And assume 26 men to the platoon plus officer, so looking at 8 guys in the squad carrying M1 carbines and a Thompson SMG chucked in for a squad leader. 8 * 0.46 + 1 * 1.04 = 4.72, so 5FP looks right. Not being front line troops, I think a 6 morale would be fine but considered Underlined. Looks like 2nd line would be the best fit. The smoke exponent should probably be more as they would have access to more smoke and they should be able to use FT/DC wo penalty. Only quirk I would add is that they ARE considered Inexperienced even as 2nd line squads.

 

[21Z5M]

If the platoon is organic to an Infantry Battalion and trains as an infantry reserve would they still have a morale of 6 and be considered as 2nd line?

 

[Mr Incredible]

If the platoon is organic to an Infantry Battalion and trains as an infantry reserve would they still have a morale of 6 and be considered as 2nd line?

I think you've answered your own question.

It trains as a reserve so would not be elite and have a morale of 7. They are not 1st line troops (the typical fresh/front line troops) as they are a reserve. 2nd line fits nicely, still a morale of 6. To allow for maintenance of their special attributes so they don't become green rabble, their morale should be underlined (assumes ELR 5) and this will remain as such. If you think about the big boys (747 jumbos), if their ELR was <5 by SSR they would be replaced by 546s, so it dovetails nicely. Given that they are reserves and not front line, they should be Inexperienced, except in DC/FT use where they can use without penalty. If they BH they become fanatic. Oh, and another thing, would not allow them spray fire as no inherent BAR and only the single Thompson for the squad leader.

5[SUP]4[/SUP]-4-6

 

[21Z5M]

Fair enough thanks

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

Srynerson was correct about the fire power issue most squad members had M1 carbines with no inherent sw (BAR) to boost their firepower. They were trained to do light engineer tasks which did include demo work, seems like it should be something like 5-4-7.

Not sure if in the counter mix, but a 5-4-6 would be more like it.

The Ammunition and Pioneer Platoons were mainly used to "build bunkers for the HQs (when building were unavailable)", wire road blocks for the company in the defense, or to manage and maintain the unit Ammunition Supply Point. These were not "Highly trained specialists", but regular "Joe's" that lucked out and were assigned to the platoon based upon the "luck of the draw".

I've read many historical books about the Infantry in battle, and have rarely read anything about the A&P Platoon. The only thing that came close was the battles in the early fighting of December 16th on the North shoulder of the Bulge, "Buchwald Station" and the surrounding areas (394th and 395th Infantry Regiments).

Not really sure they are worth the effort to include in a scenario.

Kevin

 

[Paul M. Weir]

With them not having even one BAR and a smallish squad, I would rate them even lower at 4 FP. I have always considered the 666/667 squads to have "acquired" an extra BAR (for a total of 2) and the 536/546 to have had only 1.

My suggestion is to use the PA 447 squads (from RS), SSR adjust the Smoke to taste, treat as DC/FT non-inexperienced. That way they can ERL to 336 and there will be no confusion between ERLed 666 to 546 and the A&P squads.

 

[21Z5M]

Paul

Why the change in the morale to a 7?

 

[Paul M. Weir]

Paul

Why the change in the morale to a 7?

Very good question! Others have suggested 6 morale, which from their comments seem a quite reasonable choice.

The whole morale question is totally subjective. Because of their lack of FP and limited amount of specialist training, I would see them usually represented by 2 x 546 or 2 x 666 at most , 'hidden' within the normal mass of troops and having no special attributes. However if in the original action they used their engineer skills (eg DCs) to a sufficient degree and that made a real difference then you might consider them to have had a rush of courage. They would still ERL down to 336 who then would have no special powers (the braver and more skilled ones are dead). In that sort of case I would represent by 3 x 447 (rather than 2 x 546/666) with either the same ERL as the rest or 2/3 if working with 4 ERL troops. Initially harder and more "revved up" but likely to turn into absolutely feeble crap.

The ASL infantry rating system, coming from SL, is made out of nothing but impressions. As it evolved there emerged some patterns with regard to range and FP, so if you were confronted with a new historical squad you could work out range and FP that at least did not clash too badly with existing squads (the US 747 and German 838 are still the odd ones out). Assigning standard morale is still very much a case of looking at the nationality, wetting your finger and sticking it in the air to see which way the wind blows, much less scientific. Then when assigning the mix (eg 667 vs 666 vs 546), you should take into consideration the historical performance of the troops in question to decide the mix of E, 1 and 2 troops.

Applying that approach to the A&P platoon means that if they were not noted for anything extraordinary then just add them as 2 x 666/546 squad into the mass of the mix. If they were noted as doing something vital in actual combat, using 3 x 447 (or some mix of 3 x 447 and 336) having 7 morale gives them a better chance in ASL to match their historical deeds. Such an approach recognises them as weak in raw FP with a high percentage of "sad sacks", but occasionally they rise above the norm and act as combat engineers.

Though most ASL nations engineers are 8 morale Elite, often with ERL 5, really only the German and to a lesser extent the Soviet had largish units (battalion+) of engineers that were true combat engineers. Most nations 'engineers' were construction units varying from highly trained specialists to labour units that could not be trusted with anything more dangerous than a shovel. I feel that most of ASL engineer units are actually infantry given extra training for a particular battle, with maybe a few true engineers added to provide specialist guidance.

The old mantra of "design for effect" applies. One scenario's 2 x 546 might be the next scenario's 3 x 447.

Anyway just my thoughts, not gospel, being thrown into the pot for consideration. Sometimes you need a 7 morale unit to deliver the goods (DC) to reflect real history.

 

[21Z5M]

Are they just Infantry with a little more training, true engineers without all the training or supply personnel?

Section IV
AMMUNITION AND PIONEER PLATOON
58.
REFERENCES. For training in simple field engineering and field expedients, installing land mines and booby traps, and ammunition supply, see FMs 5-15, 5-30, 5-31, 7-30, 7-35, and 25-10.
59.
COMPOSITION. For organization, equipment, armament, and transportation, see T/O and E 7-16.
60.
FUNCTIONS. The ammunition and pioneer platoon is concerned with the ammunition supply of the battalion, the execution of simple field engineering tasks not requiring the technical training and special equipment of engineer troops, and the installation and breaching of mine fields. The platoon leader assigns duties to members of the platoon in accordance with the requirements of the situation after consultation with battalion S-4. During combat the platoon, under the supervision of battalion S-4, operates the battalion ammunition supply point and uses this point as a base for all its activities.
a.
Ammunition supply. In combat the platoon leader makes available to the battalion S-4 such portion of the platoon as is necessary for ammunition supply. The platoon operates the battalion ammunition service as directed by the battalion S-4, loads and unloads ammunition vehicles, and when the situation does not permit the transportation of ammunition by weapon carrier beyond the battalion ammunition supply point, carries the ammunition forward by hand to the company areas where it is taken over by company ammunition bearers. It may carry the ammunition directly to the weapons. Personnel may be attached to one or more subordinate units when it appears that considerable movement of ammunition by hand will be necessary. They may also accompany empty ammunition vehicles to assist in loading them at the regimental ammunition supply point.
b.
Pioneer work. The pioneer duties of the platoon include minor road repair, bridging of small streams and ditches, temporary repair of small bridges and culverts, making ravines and ditches passable for motor vehicles, maintenance of crossings at fords, elimination of obstructions and obstacles to motor vehicles, marking routes and localities, execution of minor demolitions, and execution of such field expedients as are necessary for the road and cross-country movement of the battalion vehicles. On the march, when engineers are not attached, the platoon may be divided into two groups. The first group is employed near the head of the battalion for minor road maintenance and repairs and for removing obstacles and obstructions. The second group accompanies the battalion trains and assists their movement. During combat a portion of the platoon will usually be employed on pioneer tasks in order to assist the forward movement of vehicles.
c.
Installation and breaching of mine fields. The platoon will be prepared to: lay, mark and record mine fields; recognize all types of mines and booby traps used by friendly and enemy troops; disarm, lift and destroy activated antitank and antipersonnel mines and booby traps of all types used by friendly and enemy troops; and breach extensive mine fields, The platoon is furnished with portable mine-detector sets,

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

Do you have this information in digits you can share?

Or is there a web link for this info?

Thanks

 

[Mr Incredible]

So they are just a glorified pot hole repair gang???

Bah, basic 5-4-6 2nd line squad thanks, no more. ELR the same as other troops in the force mix.

The benefits I'd give them is that they are Sappers (the -2 mod can be used for the clearance of all obstacles, not just mines) and maybe an extra -1 for digging Foxholes. These guys never suffer low ammo but can use DCs without penalty.

Apart from that, these guys are just ammo runners and pot-hole fillers.

 

[sneo]

i was trained as an assault pioneer and my feelings sometimes were how Mr Incredible put it: "pot-hole fillers"