US 2nd Infantry Division in Normandy

wrongway149

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I have recently read several sources claiming that the US 23rd (and possibly 38th) Infantry Regiments of 2 ID landed at D +1 equipped with Springfield 1903 bolt-action rifles rather than M1 Garands. Apparently the Col in command did not like the ammo usage on the M1. (a 6+1 for sure)

The GIs found the Springfields less than adequate in the bocage vs 3rd FSJ, which had mostly automatic weapons, so they received M1s once the CO was replaced on the 17th of June. So how would these troops be best represented with counters available?

6-6-6, but no assault fire? Maybe a low ELR, say 2? (my leaning).

What scenarios currently depict this unit in action during that time frame (if any) ?

Thanks for the help.
 

Mr Incredible

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I'm thinking 466s with no assault fire.

Similar to the German 467 squad with bolt action rifles and a squad LMG, just lower morale.
 

Paul M. Weir

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My guess would be a 456.

Such a squad would be armed with a BAR plus Springfields. That could be no better than a British 457 Squad armed with a Bren and Lee-Enfields. Indeed if you look at the early USMC which was armed with a BAR and Springfields, that gets a 458. The range of 6 for the Garand armed US/USMC squads and GPM type MG-34/42 armed German I feel is the extra fire volume gives them an extra hex reach.

So 4-5-7/8 -> 4-5-6/8 -> 4-4-6/7 -> 4-3-6/7. No Assault or Spraying fire for any.
 

wrongway149

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As you've asked for solutions using available counters, what about 546 second line squads with regular ELR and no assault/spraying fire?
Another good way to go- maybe even slightly better ELR [4], so they don't sub all the way to green which is kind of harsh IMO. Bumps down the CC FP too, (making them even with a German 548), which is very important in the bocage country.
 

wrongway149

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My guess would be a 456.

Such a squad would be armed with a BAR plus Springfields. That could be no better than a British 457 Squad armed with a Bren and Lee-Enfields. Indeed if you look at the early USMC which was armed with a BAR and Springfields, that gets a 458. The range of 6 for the Garand armed US/USMC squads and GPM type MG-34/42 armed German I feel is the extra fire volume gives them an extra hex reach.

So 4-5-7/8 -> 4-5-6/8 -> 4-4-6/7 -> 4-3-6/7. No Assault or Spraying fire for any.
Well one advantage of the Springfield was an adapter for rifle grenades (part of the reason some units kept a few around for a little longer), which was never as common for the M1 even once one was sourced. So I am OK with not dropping all the way to a 4 FP.
 
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Paul M. Weir

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Well one advantage of the Springfield was an adapter for rifle grenades (part of the reason some units kept a few around for a little longer), which never as common for the M1 even once one was sourced. So I am OK with not dropping all the way to a 4 FP.
Most armies had rifle grenades and that does not seem to affect their ASL FP one way or another.

In a thread that has gone bye-bye during GS's SW change, I laid out what I discerned was ASL's FP pattern from existing rifle squads.

3: Base FP for any squad, simply someone firing at you, effective or not.
+1: For each inherent LMG, whether BAR or MG-42.
+1: For a squad armed with a majority of semi-automatic rifles (SAR).
+1: For each 3 SMG or 1/3 of squad with SMG.
-1: For particularly badly trained or motivated troops, an impressionistic tweak, EG 1/C Italians, Hungarians or Axis Minors or 2/C Japanese.
+1: For particularly good troops, an impressionistic tweak, especially if giving a CC boost would seem historically appropriate.

Note that, as best I can see, the number of bolt action rifles in a squad makes no difference to FP. A '39 German 13 man rifle squad has the same 4 FP as a '41/'42 British 7/8 man rifle squad as both had a single LMG.

Eg the current USA line 667-666-546-536. The 2/G get 3 + 1 (BAR) + 1 (SAR). The E/1 get an additional +1 due to either better quality or the common practice of 'acquiring' a 2nd BAR.

So given that the 23rd squads had just a BAR and bolt rifles (3 + 1 (BAR)) then 4 FP is the way to go. If the E/1 squads had an extra 'acquired' BAR, then 5 FP would be appropriate. However if Col Scrooge decided that Springfields were the way to go to save on ammo, then a 2nd BAR would seem unlikely.

So
4-5-7/8 -> 4-5-6/8 -> 4-4-6/7 -> 4-3-6/7 would seem more likely
but
5-5-7/8 -> 5-5-6/8 -> 4-4-6/7 -> 4-3-6/7 would be an alternative.
No Assault or Spraying Fire for either.
 

Rock SgtDan

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Well one advantage of the Springfield was an adapter for rifle grenades (part of the reason some units kept a few around for a little longer), which was never as common for the M1 even once one was sourced.
Not created or made TOE when the rifle accepted for service ??? When was the adapter created & issued?
IIRC I read somewhere that one was issued to each platoon. Or maybe squad. Oh, yea,-- in Eight Iron Men where Lee Marvin asks who is carrying it.
 
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