Unloading squad goes berserk

[Binchois]

well played! But ask you this.. .if those are true.. and they are..

Then why is there a specified limit of 4 MF given in D6.5? If it couldn't exceed it normally anyway.

There's no explaining the supernatural. Zerkies are men beyond Space and Time and Reason!

 

[Sparky]

hahahah. Good answer!

 

[Eagle4ty]

If one uses Minimum Move (A4.134) & Inexperienced Personnel (A19.3) as additional basis of MF determination for (un)loading/transporting by a vehicle in conjunction with D6.5, all personnel have a unmutable 4MF allowance for calculation when accomplishing such actions. I do not see how becoming Berserk upon unloading would materially affect this calculation. A personnel unit becoming berserk upon unloading would have its movement capabilities still reduced to the 4MF allowed by a transported personnel unit barring an EXC, of which I have seen none.

 

[bendizoid]

Is he still a PRC? If so HOB don’t apply. I think he’s almost a non PRC.

 

[jrv]

Is he still a PRC? If so HOB don’t apply. I think he’s almost a non PRC.

When a unit expends MF to unload, it is no longer PRC. It becomes infantry when it expends the MF to unload.

JR

 

[Sparky]

A personnel unit becoming berserk upon unloading would have its movement capabilities still reduced to the 4MF allowed by a transported personnel unit barring an EXC, of which I have seen none.

There is likely not an EXC given for a reason. An important one perhaps lol.

Where this might have left off yesterday thanks to Binchois is illustrating that the very rules that allow infantry to normally exceed 4 MF also state that if they begin the MPh as PRC they can NOT exceed 4 MF if they spend any MF to dismount/offload. Those are the only two cases I can think of in which rules allow a unit to 'willingly' exceed 4 MF. The plot thickens if one is being overlooked.

So if those were the only and are N/A for infantry that started a MPh as PRC. Why is a the limit of 4 MF given in D6.5.

Easy. It is answering the OP's question. Going Berserk is a case in which an offloaded infantry unit could exceed 4 MF and A15.431 does not put limitations on the extra MF other than for being wounded. I'd contend the reason there is no exception is D6.5 was phrased that way with just this question in mind.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Those are the only two cases I can think of in which rules allow a unit to 'willingly' exceed 4 MF.

You also have Road Bouns - which can give you one MF; and there are also the more rare case of skiing and riding bycycles down hill.

So if those were the only and are N/A for infantry that started a MPh as PRC. Why is a the limit of 4 MF given in D6.5.

D6.5 is indeed written as if there is a 4 MF limit, sort-of in a way as if the limit was written elsewhere in the rule, as it is expressed in the way of a reminder.

 

[Sparky]

but since you need to start a turn in a road hex, as infantry to get that bonus. It doesn't play into breaking down the MF limitation of D6.5.

You may have me on skis and bicycles.. I'll have to dig through the RB and see if those might apply to the question at hand.

 

[Sparky]

ski's? Maybe. Maybe not. Wonder if that has ever been an official query into that case.

E4.31 says you can exceed MF allotments and gives 3 cases (though not listed as examples of) of exceeding special MF allotments (note not the same as MF limitations). Offloaded PRC are not one of them. Taking the ASLRB maxim to heart, I'd say that if E4.31 doesn't mention offloaded infantry, you can not exceed 4.

Bicycles? Appears to be same case as Road Bonus but does get an extra MF for going down a level while on a road. Nothing I see disqualifies that as having started a MPh as PRC

Being more a physical rule per se than a mechanical construct rule. I'd have to say that an official query regarding Bicycle riders being able to exceed 4 MF is more challenging and less certain due to physics haha, not a specifically given MF factor given to Berserk infantry. Plus there is the commonality factor and believe D6.5 was written as it for just such a case as unloading infantry are common IFT targets and yes, HoB results and Beserk do happen. However dismounted Bicyclists. Shit... I couldn't even tell you the last time I have played anything with Bicycles.. much less dismounted them and their infantry from being PRC haha

 

[Sparky]

Good finds Klas. So instead of 1 case, we have 3 but there are no exceptions listed in D6.5 to exceeding that 4MF limitaton.

I think 1 is kaput dead on arrival Having a dismounted infantry fired on and going berserk is common enough and what I think was exactly what D6.5 was going after.

However due lack of chances of actually regularly happening and thanks to physic and all that great stuff, if skiers and bicyclists could qualify for that extra MF for going downhill. Does D6.5 limit the effects of gravity and a units MF. A Noble Prize in Physics goes to whoever gives a yes vote from MMP on that one haha. Which means perhaps there is a missing exception here to D6.5 to be found.

 

[Eagle4ty]

In as much as minimum move is disallowed for transported personnel that become Infantry, I would think it highly unlikely that additional MF would be allowed for an Infantry unit becoming berserk (JMHO though). :study:

 

[Binchois]

I do hope someone has submitted this question to Perry. It is an interesting one with good points from both sides. Moreover, as stated by someone above, the OP situation is one that could "easily" occur is many scenarios.

The RB is unclear at best: D6.5 and its last-minute, passing mention of a "limit" - versus the Berserker rules which potentially allows a double-timing squad 2 additional MFs after going CX and running seven hexes down a road...

And while not the same, there are two Q&As which allow a Berserker more MFs despite having already used its "maximum allowance" (for that action, that is):

​

Q: A4.61 & A15.43 If a squad Assault Moves, is fired on and becomes Berserk, do they immediately gain (8 minus the normal MF spent to enter the hex they entered using Assault Movement) MF to use in a Charge?​

A. Yes. [Compil1]​

​

Q: A4.63 If a unit Dashing across a road becomes berserk, does it charge in that same MPh?
A. Yes, using eight MF (three MF if wounded) minus whatever MF it has already expended. [An91; An96; Mw]​

I assume the answer would be the same after making a "Minimum Move"

Many of the movement rules include an EXCeption specifically for Infantry which utilize transport during the MPh (A4.11, 4.12, 4.134, 17.2). The Berserk rules includes the EXC for wounded guys, but not for unloading passengers. As said above, it may be an intentional oversight.

 

[bendizoid]

Squad leader is best when things get crazy, 8 MPs

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I do hope someone has submitted this question to Perry.

I don't think anyone has....

 

[Eagle4ty]

I don't think anyone has....

I'll go ahead and do it. Going, going, gone.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I'll go ahead and do it. Going, going, gone.

No need - someone else did it......

 

[Eagle4ty]

Perhaps I missed the other person's response from Perry but here's the Q&As I received recently:

Asked on 2 July 2018

Q1). Would personnel units [EXC: those immune to HOB] unloading from a vehicle that has spent more than 1/2 but less than or equal to 3/4 of its MP allowance have any additional MF available to conduct a charge if it were to become berserk upon dismounting from the vehicle?

Q2). Is the answer the same for an infantry unit that has spent its entire MF allowance to move into a location using Minimum Move (A4.134) during the current MPh?

A. Yes to both; 8MF minus how many already spent. See the Examples in A4.134 for how to calculate spent MF.


....Perry

[EDIT] Also posted to "Perry Says" thread.