Unload and abandon in same MPh??

Michael R

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My opponent wishes to unload his SPW251 passenger (D6.5) and have the crew abandon (D5.4) the half track in the same phase.
I say "no" because that would require 1/4MP + ALL MP. He is countering with a reality argument. It occurs to me, however, that one could have the two MP expenditures be simultaneous. I see nothing in the rules or Q&A about this.

What say you?
 

Fred Ingram

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My opponent wishes to unload his SPW251 passenger (D6.5) and have the crew abandon (D5.4) the half track in the same phase.
I say "no" because that would require 1/4MP + ALL MP. He is countering with a reality argument. It occurs to me, however, that one could have the two MP expenditures be simultaneous. I see nothing in the rules or Q&A about this.

What say you?
NRBH - but I probably would allow it (seems creative) - of course, the vehicle could not have moved in that phase before the action



Well - to unload - the VEHICLE must spend 1/4 of its movement points (not sure if that counts as movement if the vehicle goes nowhere and has not started or stopped) Probably does technically

To abandon, the CREW must spend ALL its movement factors (and the vehicle could not have moved - see above)

Not sure if there is a conflict there or not :nuts:
 
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von Marwitz

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My opponent wishes to unload his SPW251 passenger (D6.5) and have the crew abandon (D5.4) the half track in the same phase.
I say "no" because that would require 1/4MP + ALL MP. He is countering with a reality argument. It occurs to me, however, that one could have the two MP expenditures be simultaneous. I see nothing in the rules or Q&A about this.

What say you?
I'd say "no" for the same reasons as you do. Unloading is simultaneous MP/MF expenditure requiring both a quarter of the passengers' MFs and vehicles MPs. As such, there won't be ALL left that are required for Abandonment.

von Marwitz
 

Wayne

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My opponent wishes to unload his SPW251 passenger (D6.5) and have the crew abandon (D5.4) the half track in the same phase.
I say "no" because that would require 1/4MP + ALL MP. He is countering with a reality argument. It occurs to me, however, that one could have the two MP expenditures be simultaneous. I see nothing in the rules or Q&A about this.

What say you?

It is allowed.

Sequence matters. First, Crew Abandons (ASOP Step 3.22A).

Notice that this Abandonment operation requires Crew MFs, but requires no vehicle MPs, per se (D5.41).

[Any/all MPs potentially expended by that vehicle, this MPh, will be simultaneous with the Abandonment (D5.43) but, at this juncture of the Game Turn, the vehicle may not be targeted by D1F, because the Abandonment, per se, requires no vehicular MP expenditure (D5.41).]

Then, Passengers may declare dismount (ASOP Step 3,32A), expending their MF, and 1/4 of vehicle MPs. Both Passengers (now Infantry) and vehicle may be appropriately targeted by D1F vs these expenditures.

[Notice that this Unload operation has no effect on the (former) Crew, so, the Unload exacts nothing from the Crew, re their MF allotment, that MPh.]

Last, remaining MPs of the vehicle may be cited for D1F purposes, Because, in this case, the vehicle declared =some= MPs (1/4, for the Unload operation), it expends =all= MPs, that MPh, be they declared or not (D2.1), and these remaining may be cited for D1F declarations.

In Final Fire, any of them (Crew, vehicle, former Passengers) may be validly targeted.
 
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klasmalmstrom

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Since a vehicle expends "all" MP when it is being entered, per D5.42 (and can be targetted on those MP), I think it is reasonable that they also spend MP when they are being abandoned. Though I'll admit that the rules are somewhat murky on the subject.

As for the ASOP, it is a bit strange that the entry/exit is in Step 3.22A - since per the ASOP no DFF can be done in that Step and the rules clearly allows it.

D5.43 example:
"An Infantry Unit attempting to enter and Inherently crew a vehicle (or attempting to load on to any form of transport as a Passenger/Rider) does not succeed—and also fails to hook up a Gun if it were attempting to do so too—if, due to defensive fire prompted by that MF/MP expenditure, it is pinned, eliminated or loses its Good Order Status (or the vehicle is destroyed)...."

That being said, I would allow a crew to abandon at the same time Passengers unload - IMO, the MP "spent" are just representing time passing by.
 

rdw5150

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Since a vehicle expends "all" MP when it is being entered, per D5.42 (and can be targetted on those MP), I think it is reasonable that they also spend MP when they are being abandoned. Though I'll admit that the rules are somewhat murky on the subject.

As for the ASOP, it is a bit strange that the entry/exit is in Step 3.22A - since per the ASOP no DFF can be done in that Step and the rules clearly allows it.

D5.43 example:
"An Infantry Unit attempting to enter and Inherently crew a vehicle (or attempting to load on to any form of transport as a Passenger/Rider) does not succeed—and also fails to hook up a Gun if it were attempting to do so too—if, due to defensive fire prompted by that MF/MP expenditure, it is pinned, eliminated or loses its Good Order Status (or the vehicle is destroyed)...."

That being said, I would allow a crew to abandon at the same time Passengers unload - IMO, the MP "spent" are just representing time passing by.
This is how I have always played it (It is also the way everyone I have played does it as well.)

Why would a vehicle crew have to wait an extra turn, with passengers getting out in one turn, then sitting around and waiting for the crew to get out.

Peace

Roger
 

Michael R

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Thank you everyone for your input. You have convinced me to allow it.
 

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Since a vehicle expends "all" MP when it is being entered, per D5.42 (and can be targetted on those MP), I think it is reasonable that they also spend MP when they are being abandoned. Though I'll admit that the rules are somewhat murky on the subject.
Hmm. I'm not seeing =any= mention of MPs (or their targeting) in D5.42, so, I’m not following you, here.

As for the ASOP, it is a bit strange that the entry/exit is in Step 3.22A - since per the ASOP no DFF can be done in that Step and the rules clearly allows it.
I'm not seeing that D1F is =clearly= allowed by any rule vs any ASOP Step D3.22A activities. There’s a very long list of activities in ASOP 3.32A. For whatever reason, =simple= Crew entry/abandonment of a vehicle is not in the 3.32A list (where D1F =is= allowed), but in the 3.22A list (where D1F is =not= allowed).

I see how the D5.43 EX may =seem= to say D1F is allowed vs simple vehicle Crew entry/Abandonment, but I think the (more loosely worded) EX is (too tersely) referring to both simple Crew entry/Abandonment =and= to the same plus Gun Hooking/Unhooking (C10.11, C10.12). The latter occur in ASOP Step 3.32A, where D1F =is= allowed.

D5.43 example:
"An Infantry Unit attempting to enter and Inherently crew a vehicle (or attempting to load on to any form of transport as a Passenger/Rider) does not succeed—and also fails to hook up a Gun if it were attempting to do so too—if, due to defensive fire prompted by that MF/MP expenditure, it is pinned, eliminated or loses its Good Order Status (or the vehicle is destroyed)...."
Note that attempting to Inherrently Crew is not an activity subject to D1F =unless= done in a manner found in ASOP Step 3.32A.

So, I'm seeing the Crew subject to D1F only if also trying to Hookup a Gun, say. Otherwise, simple entry occurs in ASOP Step 3.22A (no D1F, therein).

That being said, I would allow a crew to abandon at the same time Passengers unload - IMO, the MP "spent" are just representing time passing by.
Well, your opponent may prefer to Abandon in that D1F-free ASOP Step before the Passenger Unload. ;)

Seems to me, if you =only= want to Abandon/enter a vehicle, you accomplish that, w/out fear of intervention via D1F (perhaps that seems odd), owing to the ASOP. (In both cases, you might get whacked in Final Fire, of course.)

Maybe this "D1F immunity by warrant of ASOP Step 3.22A" is intended; maybe it isn't. But, unless I've missed something, it seems to be the rule as written.
 
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Stewart

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Can the Passengers unload if the Vehicle FIREs?

Well, the inf moves in the Mph, when the Vehicle HAS NO MP to expend! same issue.

You just can't move it during abandonment that's the gist
 

Stewart

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You did..

The vehicle has no MP in mph, yet the passers can still unload...

How is this different from not firing not moving AND everyone gets out?
How would a tank crew getting out of tank make the riders stay on?

Hell, they'd have to get out of the way when the hatches open...
 

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I'm not seeing that D1F is =clearly= allowed by any rule vs any ASOP Step D3.22A activities. There’s a very long list of activities in ASOP 3.32A. For whatever reason, =simple= Crew entry/abandonment of a vehicle is not in the 3.32A list (where D1F =is= allowed), but in the 3.22A list (where D1F is =not= allowed).

I see how the D5.43 EX may =seem= to say D1F is allowed vs simple vehicle Crew entry/Abandonment, but I think the (more loosely worded) EX is (too tersely) referring to both simple Crew entry/Abandonment =and= to the same plus Gun Hooking/Unhooking (C10.11, C10.12). The latter occur in ASOP Step 3.32A, where D1F =is= allowed.



Note that attempting to Inherrently Crew is not an activity subject to D1F =unless= done in a manner found in ASOP Step 3.32A.

So, I'm seeing the Crew subject to D1F only if also trying to Hookup a Gun, say. Otherwise, simple entry occurs in ASOP Step 3.22A (no D1F, therein).
So A8.1 is also incorrect then?

"Anytime a unit/stack expends MF/MP in the LOS of one of his units, the DEFENDER has the option to temporarily halt its movement while he fires at it in that Location with as many attacks as he can bring to bear."
 

General Mayhem

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And D9.3. Why would this rule mention that AFV TEM applies to a unit Abandoning an AFV if it cannot be fired on?
 

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Hmm. I'm not seeing =any= mention of MPs (or their targeting) in D5.42, so, I’m not following you, here.

That's because it is mentioned as related to the Crew MF expenditure in
"D5.42 ENTRY: An Infantry unit may enter an Abandoned vehicle to become its Inherent crew only if it occupies that vehicle’s Location at the start of its MPh (not APh) and expends all of its MF to do so [EXC: CCPh; A21.2]. It may also attempt to hook up a Gun as it does so. See also 5.43. A vehicle may not be entered during the same Player Turn in which its previous crew left [EXC: CCPh; A21.2]." and,

"D5.43 FFNAM: ...or the vehicle’s simultaneous MP/MF expenditure (6.4; 6.5)." and the Example of D5.43,

"EX: An Infantry Unit attempting to enter and Inherently crew a vehicle (or attempting to load on to any form of transport as a Passenger/Rider) does not succeed—and also fails to hook up a Gun if it were attempting to do so too—if, due to defensive fire prompted by that MF/MP expenditure, it is pinned, eliminated or loses its Good Order Status (or the vehicle is destroyed). An Inherent crew attempting to Abandon a vehicle (or a Passenger/Rider attempting to unload from its transport) does succeed—but does not unhook a Gun if it were also attempting to do so—if it is pinned, eliminated or loses its Good Order status (or the vehicle is destroyed) due to such fire."


I'm not seeing that D1F is =clearly= allowed by any rule vs any ASOP Step D3.22A activities. There’s a very long list of activities in ASOP 3.32A. For whatever reason, =simple= Crew entry/abandonment of a vehicle is not in the 3.32A list (where D1F =is= allowed), but in the 3.22A list (where D1F is =not= allowed).

That's because in the ASOP Step 3.22A is a subset of each unit's MPh...3.2A is a subset of "3.2 START of ITS MPh". So, at the START of ITS MPh a crew must announce its intention to Abandon its vehicle and mark the vehicle Abandoned. (this is the same thing you do for units that are Banzaiing for example) Then you move to the next step "3.3 DURING ITS MPH", skipping 3.31A as there are no Berserkers moving now, to 3.32a where the crew (as are all other units) is allowed to actually spend the movement (all in this case) to perform the action just announced in 3.2 above.

I see how the D5.43 EX may =seem= to say D1F is allowed vs simple vehicle Crew entry/Abandonment, but I think the (more loosely worded) EX is (too tersely) referring to both simple Crew entry/Abandonment =and= to the same plus Gun Hooking/Unhooking (C10.11, C10.12). The latter occur in ASOP Step 3.32A, where D1F =is= allowed.

Incorrect, NO action that requires actual MP/MF expenditure is performed in 3.2...this step is only for ANNOUNCEMENT of intended action.

Note that attempting to Inherrently Crew is not an activity subject to D1F =unless= done in a manner found in ASOP Step 3.32A.

The act of spending Movement Points/Factors to (voluntarily) Crew or Abandon a vehicle is allowed ONLY in 3.32A...This is the only place a Good Order Unit MAY move during its MPh.

So, I'm seeing the Crew subject to D1F only if also trying to Hookup a Gun, say. Otherwise, simple entry occurs in ASOP Step 3.22A (no D1F, therein).

Incorrect, the Announcement of intent to Abandon/Enter is done in 3.22A where is says (Pepare to Move)

Well, your opponent may prefer to Abandon in that D1F-free ASOP Step before the Passenger Unload. ;)

Not possible.

Seems to me, if you =only= want to Abandon/enter a vehicle, you accomplish that, w/out fear of intervention via D1F (perhaps that seems odd), owing to the ASOP. (In both cases, you might get whacked in Final Fire, of course.)

Maybe this "D1F immunity by warrant of ASOP Step 3.22A" is intended; maybe it isn't. But, unless I've missed something, it seems to be the rule as written.
You have misread the rules section, the ASOP and its intent. I recommend you send in a Q&A if you disagree.
 
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Wayne

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Fort -

Thank you for the very detailed response, above.

...this step is only for ANNOUNCEMENT of intended action.
Assuming the intent of 3.22A (in this case) is only to announce, is there a game-mechanic reason why this particular act must be announced at ASOP step 3.22A? As opposed to simply done within 3.32A?

Acknowledging the possible global-within-step applicability of the first sentence of ASOP 3.22A, the subsequent 3.22A wording, "Crew abandons or enters vehicle," does not read as a directive to announce, but as an instruction to do. Why?

Thanks.

- Wayne
 
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Stewart

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"Prepare to move your units"

Whew, glad it told me that...otherwise I would've went straight to the DFPh.
 
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