Unit gets berserk DURING its MPh, abandon his SW or not?

[Xavier_Zhang]

Situation:
A German HS carrying an 4PP HMG is moving with a 9-2 leader as a stack in their MPh. They used 1MF and entered a new hex, where they got DF and took MC. The leader rolled 2 and HoB DR got him berserk. HS passed the MC and then pass the NTC (A15.41) to become berserk as well. They have KEU in LOS from that hex. So now, they should begin to charge to that KEU.

And my question is which of the following should apply:

A. The HS MUST drop the HMG immediately, and then starts charging.

OR

B. The HS CAN carry his HMG, and starts charging.



My opponent and I have different opinions on this situation.
I think the HS should drop the HMG immediately according to a Q&A which states:

A15.431
A Wounded SMC possessing a 1PP SW goes Berserk and has to charge. Does he drop the SW and charge with 3 MF, or keep it (A15.431) and charge with just 2 MF?
A. He drops the SW; berserk units may not portage > their IPC.

and the HMG is over the HS's IPC, while a berserk leader can not add his IPC to a berserk unit. And it is also weird that a unit can carry a 4PP SW to move 8MF in one true without any other restriction or penalty.


But my opponent insisted that the HS need not to abandon the HMG, since according to the third sentence of A15.431:

A15.431 ... At the start of its MPh before charging, a berserk unit must abandon any SW which individually costs more than 1 PP or which in combination with other 1 PP SW is in excess of its IPC, but may use them in the DFPh/AFPh prior to that, and must still carry those it can retain (DC can only be Thrown—not Placed or Set). ...

Since the rule only says "At the start of its MPh before charging", a berserk unit must abandon SW. And in our situation the HS has been during its MPh, not at the start of its MPh, so he need not to drop that SW.

I checked several related rules and Q&A sources, but cannot find out which is definitely right. I think there is some confliction on interpret "At the start of its MPh before charging". Maybe this phrase should be read as "at the start of its 'before charging' MPh"? I mean the starting point is the charging period of MPh, not its whole MPh?


Thanks a lot for clarification.

 

[jrv]

A15.431 says that "at the start of its MPh before charging," something must happen. It does not say that the something cannot also happen at another time. In order for the A15.431 to prevent the something from happening at another time, it would have to say something like "at the start of its MPh before charging and at no other time" something must happen. A15.431 does not contradict the Q&A (nor does it justify the Q&A).

In a similar way, a unit may become CX by declaring double-time either at the beginning of the MPh (to gain two MF) or during the MPh (to gain one). That does not cause a contradiction when a unit also can become CX when Advancing vs Difficult Terrain.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

IMO, the Berserk rules lack some text as to what happens when a unit goes Berserk during its MPh.

However, I've always played it (and seen it played and will continue to play [because I think it is the logical thing to do]) as if the same requirements apply as those that apply to a unit that is Berserk at the start of its MPh.

 

[Tooz]

Similar questions here: If a squad guarding prisoners goes berserk, must his prisoners charge with him? Happened last game.

 

[Treadhead]

Similar questions here: If a squad guarding prisoners goes berserk, must his prisoners charge with him? Happened last game.

I'm NRBH, but doesn't a Berserk unit eliminate Prisoners, thus losing its Berserk status in the process?

 

[Tooz]

"'m NRBH, but doesn't a Berserk unit eliminate Prisoners, thus losing its Berserk status in the process?"--Treadhead
Cool! Where can I find that rule?

 

[Mister T]

Similar questions here: If a squad guarding prisoners goes berserk, must his prisoners charge with him? Happened last game.

NRBH
They charge with prisoners, but they massacre them at the next friendly fire phase. :hurt:

 

[Justiciar]

"'m NRBH, but doesn't a Berserk unit eliminate Prisoners, thus losing its Berserk status in the process?"--Treadhead
Cool! Where can I find that rule?

A20.4. The process is as Mr. T. notes.

 

[Mister T]

Situation:
A German HS carrying an 4PP HMG is moving with a 9-2 leader as a stack in their MPh. They used 1MF and entered a new hex, where they got DF and took MC. The leader rolled 2 and HoB DR got him berserk. HS passed the MC and then pass the NTC (A15.41) to become berserk as well. They have KEU in LOS from that hex.

How many mf has the berserk in this situation?
1. 8-1=7 (for the mf spent before becoming zerk)
2. 8-1-1=6 (for the mf spent + 1 mf charged because the unit was carrying a 4 pp before becoming zerk)

 

[jrv]

A20.4 says, "If not in the same Location with prisoners, a berserk unit will ignore them in determining the closest enemy unit to charge." This suggests that if it is in the same Location, it does not ignore them. There is a problem with this: a prisoner is not a unit because it has no independent MF allotment. But it seems at least possible that the intention was that if a Berserk unit was in a Location with a Prisoner (including one it was holding itself), it "charges" its own Location and waits until a fire phase to massacre them.

JR

 

[Tooz]

Got it! Hope I remember this the next time I see this!
So, is No Quarter (A20.3) now in effect?

 

[Mister T]

A20.4 says, "If not in the same Location with prisoners, a berserk unit will ignore them in determining the closest enemy unit to charge." This suggests that if it is in the same Location, it does not ignore them. There is a problem with this: a prisoner is not a unit because it has no independent MF allotment. But it seems at least possible that the intention was that if a Berserk unit was in a Location with a Prisoner (including one it was holding itself), it "charges" its own Location and waits until a fire phase to massacre them.

JR

So the berserk would spent its 8 mf in its own hex subject to ffnam/possibly ffmo? Not really convinced, although it may be a way to interpret it. A Q&A would do good.

 

[Justiciar]

A20.4 says, "If not in the same Location with prisoners, a berserk unit will ignore them in determining the closest enemy unit to charge." This suggests that if it is in the same Location, it does not ignore them. There is a problem with this: a prisoner is not a unit because it has no independent MF allotment. But it seems at least possible that the intention was that if a Berserk unit was in a Location with a Prisoner (including one it was holding itself), it "charges" its own Location and waits until a fire phase to massacre them.

JR

I was thinking that if it was, it dragged them along, while it charged at a 'true' enemy unit. If it did not reach that enemy it would KIA the prisoners in the advance fire phase...but where it might get weird would be if it reached an enemy (and survived attacks as did the prisoners) then the berserker would dispatch them (and then return to normal via A20.4), thus leaving the now normal ex-berserker unit in the same location with the enemy it charged. Mark location CC. ?

 

[Justiciar]

Got it! Hope I remember this the next time I see this!
So, is No Quarter (A20.3) now in effect?

I believe that would be the case.

 

[jrv]

So the berserk would spent its 8 mf in its own hex subject to ffnam/possibly ffmo? Not really convinced, although it may be a way to interpret it. A Q&A would do good.

A berserk unit spends all the MF necessary to complete the charge, just like normal. If a berserk unit has its target in the next hex, open ground, it does not spend eight MF to go the one hex. It spends one MF just like normal. Similarly if a G.4 unit fires TPBF at a unit in its hex and drives it Berserk during the MPh, the berserk unit does not spend any MF and completes its charge.

JR

 

[Brian W]

IMO, the Berserk rules lack some text as to what happens when a unit goes Berserk during its MPh.

However, I've always played it (and seen it played and will continue to play [because I think it is the logical thing to do]) as if the same requirements apply as those that apply to a unit that is Berserk at the start of its MPh.

I think the reasoning behind not dropping during the MPh is that the excess PP penalty has already been applied, so dropping the SW does not make the charge faster at all. And, that's what the rules say.

My own berserkers never make it anywhere before getting killed anyway.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I think the reasoning behind not dropping during the MPh is that the excess PP penalty has already been applied, so dropping the SW does not make the charge faster at all. And, that's what the rules say.

As I said upstream - I think that is just an unintentional omission, ymmv.

Same with not mentioning any requirement for a Berserk unit to charge first if it becomes Berserk during the MPh while moving in a stack with another unit.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Got it! Hope I remember this the next time I see this!
So, is No Quarter (A20.3) now in effect?

Yes, in fact I think it will qualify as a Massacre - A20.4 - bumping up the ELR of the opposing side as well.

 

[Treadhead]

A20.4 says, "If not in the same Location with prisoners, a berserk unit will ignore them in determining the closest enemy unit to charge." This suggests that if it is in the same Location, it does not ignore them. There is a problem with this: a prisoner is not a unit because it has no independent MF allotment. But it seems at least possible that the intention was that if a Berserk unit was in a Location with a Prisoner (including one it was holding itself), it "charges" its own Location and waits until a fire phase to massacre them.

JR

This. If there are Prisoners in the Location when the unit becomes Berserk, it does not charge at all from that point -- it must end its MPh -- and will eliminate those Prisoners during the ensuing AFPh. Just off the top of my head, I'm sure that's how I'd play it.

 

[Treadhead]

NRBH
They charge with prisoners, but they massacre them at the next friendly fire phase. :hurt:

No I don't think so.

If Prisoners are in their Location, Berserk units cannot ignore them for Charge purposes.