Understanding the CH Counters.

olli

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The only one I could find is that 7 of them were issued to Sturmmorserkompanie's 1000 & 1001that were attached to the 6thPanzer Armee for the
Battles at Remagen and the Hurtegen forest.
 

von Marwitz

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The only one I could find is that 7 of them were issued to Sturmmorserkompanie's 1000 & 1001that were attached to the 6thPanzer Armee for the
Battles at Remagen and the Hurtegen forest.
I believe that one of them was used less then 10 miles from where I live. There is even an ASL scenario on it (HS32 A Few Rounds of the Operation Veritable Historical Study).

von Marwitz
 

Gunner Scott

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I think olli is getting the Sturmmorser tiger confused with the Sturmtiger, No SS unit possessed the Sturmmorser tiger. Heck, the crews for the Sturmmorser tiger were actually company techs.
 

olli

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No Scott the units I mentioned were the units I know what I am talking about. I have been in touch with some friends and their records clearly state that NO SS units ever used the STUMTIGER like somebody in this thread suggested. It qualified what I already thought. The units I mentioned were the actual units that operated the sturmtiger, I never even thought about the other vehicle that you mentioned as it was only a prototype.
 

Bob Walters

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I was referring to the tiger chassis with the 380mm rocket propelled mortar. It was first used in the Warsaw uprising. This vehicle a has been commonly referred to as a Sturmtiger by many sources, however, recall Sturmtiger is only a nickname.
 

Pitman

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There is no doubt that CH has improved its counter artwork over the years. Their counters now are almost up to snuff. Aesthetically, they have counter infantry counter values too close together. Also, their figures tend towards the cartoony. And the use of color on the figures & vehicles, which at first seem like a definite improvement, actually sometimes clashes with the background color, making the counters overall less attractive. Physically, one of the big problems right now is that the 5/8" counter die that Tapio's printer is using apparently needs to be replaced, as the die cutting is not close enough to the corners, making them difficult to punch and tending towards unsightly nibs that must be removed.

There is also the issue of inadequate proofing and quality control. Ray T has sometimes continued to print out countersheets with errors on them even after people pointed out those errors when the same counters appeared in previous products.

Expect to see a flood of counter releases for the foreseeable future, as countersheets are something that Ray T can make without having to worry about playtesting or development, and, as he seems to have no current playtesters, are easy for him to do.

I think it is not a good idea on principle to give CH money, even for these, because doing so simply encourages him not to reform his ways. But it's your choice. You should be aware that some people will refuse to use CH counters, if you expect to bring them to a setting with other ASL players.
 

Bob Walters

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I think it is not a good idea on principle to give CH money, even for these, because doing so simply encourages him not to reform his ways. But it's your choice. You should be aware that some people will refuse to use CH counters, if you expect to bring them to a setting with other ASL players.
To me it is like grocery shopping and finding out the store ran out of my favorite brand of bread so I substitute a store brand. We need the bread so we buy what they have. When the preferred brand is back I will buy that. As to people refusing to play with them, I think that is kind of childish but it takes all kinds. Personally as long as I can use them at home it is fine. I do not plan to buy nationalities from CH that are readily available elsewhere and I will probably replace them when MMP finally releases the ones that are out of print. Until that time as Canada Bill said, "it is the only game in town."
 

gulliver62

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I think it is not a good idea on principle to give CH money, even for these, because doing so simply encourages him not to reform his ways. But it's your choice. You should be aware that some people will refuse to use CH counters, if you expect to bring them to a setting with other ASL players.
I completely support anyone who wants to speak with their $$ especially when business practices seem designed to catch a buyer unaware that they might be buying something they already have. Everyone has the right to spend their money as they see fit and as it gives them satisfaction. I don't understand the idea of missing a possibly enjoyable game and missing the possibility of adding a new friend (I don't have enough of those) because they use different counters. They're not blood diamonds and I don't believe that the purchase of CH counters says something about the core beliefs of an individual. Again, to each his own. It's something I am just getting into and have the hope of many enjoyable hours of playing time and meeting some new people. With a stressful job and family matters, I have too many other higher priority issues going on at any one time to devote any emotional energy to the subject.
 

Pitman

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To me it is like grocery shopping and finding out the store ran out of my favorite brand of bread so I substitute a store brand. We need the bread so we buy what they have. When the preferred brand is back I will buy that. As to people refusing to play with them, I think that is kind of childish but it takes all kinds. Personally as long as I can use them at home it is fine. I do not plan to buy nationalities from CH that are readily available elsewhere and I will probably replace them when MMP finally releases the ones that are out of print. Until that time as Canada Bill said, "it is the only game in town."
It is more like grocer shopping and substituting a brand made by someone who also poisons rivers and streams with industrial runoff.
 

Tooz

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I am old enough now to know what I like and to have the right to use whatever ASL toys I wish, regardless of source. If they appeal to me and add to my enjoyment, I use them.
Oh yeah, I will be selling off my old AH/MMP counters for those interested. See me at ASLOK.
These are cardboard toys. Nothing more, nothing less. Always have been, always shall be. I like them, so I have them and use them. I find them fun to use.
If you do not wish to allow me to use my counters, then I will gladly allow you the choice to play someone else. If you are that concerned about the source of my toys, then I probably do not want to spend six or so hours of my life sitting across from you.
I am now on a time budget. I am far too old to waste my time but more than willing to waste my money. I find it money well spent.
 

kynken

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I, too, believe the counters produce by CH have vastly improved over the years. I also agree, to each his own. I use CH counters and I purchase CH counters (not at the scale they would like). I need to update my old AH French counters and until MMP reprints their module, CH is the only avenue. So, I ordered a set and I do not feel dirty nor do I feel proud. This is just a game that I have been playing since the old Squad Leader days (circa 1982). I would like to take MMP over CH at anything, but they take to long to release. I don't hold that against them for superior quality control. I understand the reality of play-testing and I agree with that, CH doesn't really do that. But, that has nothing to do with counters. What I will not do is buy CH modules because of the lack of play-testing and those map panels. I do buy from MMP still as well since I did pick up a copy of Hakkaa Paalle, Rising Sun, Yanks, Festung Budapest, Elst and the forthcoming Korean War module.

Ray Tapio has every right to run his company the way he wants too and he is no Wild Bill Wilder either. I also enjoy BFP and I purchase their stuff they put out also. I am a fan of the game and I stack my counters anyway I like too and I set up battles any way I like to, scenario or ad-hoc, I enjoy it.

My 2 cents. :)
 

Gunner Scott

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Only a complete asshole would say that to a perspective opponent about refusing to play with ch counters. When I was at ASLOK last year, I did voice my concerns with playing a scenario with CH counters but I did not refuse to use them. That would be a real dickhead move. On the other hand, I only met one asshole at ASLOK of all the times I have been there, guess who that asshole was? You herr pitmann.

Scott

I think it is not a good idea on principle to give CH money, even for these, because doing so simply encourages him not to reform his ways. But it's your choice. You should be aware that some people will refuse to use CH counters, if you expect to bring them to a setting with other ASL players.
 

RRschultze

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Only a complete asshole would say that to a perspective opponent about refusing to play with ch counters. When I was at ASLOK last year, I did voice my concerns with playing a scenario with CH counters but I did not refuse to use them. That would be a real dickhead move. On the other hand, I only met one asshole at ASLOK of all the times I have been there, guess who that asshole was? You herr pitmann.

Scott
So your only a part asshole not complete asshole in voicing your concerns about using CH counters
 

clubby

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What is the issue using them? Is it that people object to the company or that they object to the counters themselves as far as quality or ease of use? That being said, if somebody refused to play with me because of the counters I was using, I would thank them for saving me the time of finding out what I would have inevitably found out about them over the course of the next three hours or so.
 

witchbottles

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I'm very new to the game but it is an interesting thought. If someone buys the French counters from CH and is able to play the scenarios, will they still buy the new MMP module when available. Likely some fall into each camp. MMP does put out a high quality product and there will be some extra value. Maybe they will provide the later war French so you don't have to mix and match counters for later scenarios. Of course, nothing says CH can't beat them to the draw with that also.
I'm firmly in the camp that nationality countersets from any TPP are WAAY past due as an idea- we were debating their usefulness and ultimate effect on the hobby back in 2012, right here on GS forums.

I seriously doubt anyone will pass on HL v3 or CdG redux because of purchasing these countersets. Besides the reasons already mentioned:

A. MMP puts in a boatload of out of print older ASL Annual and ASL Journal scenarios into each reprinted core module.

B. MMP always adds in a nice stakc of new scenarios to each core module reprint.

C. The reprinted rules sections (E, F, H) are 2nd editionized and erratasized. Hard to fault that in any way.

D. As Perry says - MMP does not reprint core modules with n expectation that EVERYONE will buy a copy of the new and improved version. MMP focuses on providing a clean ,clear, major error-free product in the core module reprints. Perry said here on GS before RS that it was hoped people who already owned CoB and GH might find enough value to buy RS- but buying it was not necessary to play PTO. I am glad they do so.

E. MMP has taken to adding in freebie HASL CGs to the core module reprints - HLv3 will have SoN - and CdG redux will have Dinant - two more good reasons to buy the reprinted core modules.

My $.02

KRL, Jon H
 

witchbottles

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It is more like grocer shopping and substituting a brand made by someone who also poisons rivers and streams with industrial runoff.
So kind of like every major store chain in the world nowadays? CH isn't using child labor underpaid in Bangladesh to manufacture its products. Everyone who ever bought something at a Wal-Mart supported a company who does that daily.

The single best resource your website offers is a method for those desiring to separate the wheat from the chaff at CH before they buy - I not only give you kudos for that, I know it is greatly appreciated.

Dogging a TPP to try to put him out of business is bad for the hobby. You need to pay attention to Rex Martin's old advice - "A thriving TPP market is good for the hobby."

You actually succeeded with dogging Fanatic Enterprises out of the hobby - and pissing off Glenn at ESG as well.

Seems to be a remarkable similarity to your vindications (good or bad) and Typhoid Mary.
 

witchbottles

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What is the issue using them? Is it that people object to the company or that they object to the counters themselves as far as quality or ease of use? That being said, if somebody refused to play with me because of the counters I was using, I would thank them for saving me the time of finding out what I would have inevitably found out about them over the course of the next three hours or so.
There are some things I would not accept at a gaming table. If a guy walked up in a full SS-SD regalia and uniform for a ASL game, I would thank him and concede, then leave graciously. If a guy wanted to play with his new CH counters with SS insignia printed on them - fine, whatever. It's a game, I don't care what counters you use, as long as they are legible, part of ASL in any of its forms, and placed or used within the framework of the game rules.

Same for dice - If you like the look of those Beluga's Casino dice - use them. I can be beat by any dice ever made equally. Same for the counters being used - CH , BFP, LFT or MMP - all counters are equally capable of providing a good ASL game.

Like you noted - the guy across the table makes the game, not the counters or other accouterments.
 

horseshoe

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I'm firmly in the camp that nationality countersets from any TPP are WAAY past due as an idea- we were debating their usefulness and ultimate effect on the hobby back in 2012, right here on GS forums.

I seriously doubt anyone will pass on HL v3 or CdG redux because of purchasing these countersets. Besides the reasons already mentioned:

A. MMP puts in a boatload of out of print older ASL Annual and ASL Journal scenarios into each reprinted core module.

B. MMP always adds in a nice stakc of new scenarios to each core module reprint.

C. The reprinted rules sections (E, F, H) are 2nd editionized and erratasized. Hard to fault that in any way.

D. As Perry says - MMP does not reprint core modules with n expectation that EVERYONE will buy a copy of the new and improved version. MMP focuses on providing a clean ,clear, major error-free product in the core module reprints. Perry said here on GS before RS that it was hoped people who already owned CoB and GH might find enough value to buy RS- but buying it was not necessary to play PTO. I am glad they do so.

E. MMP has taken to adding in freebie HASL CGs to the core module reprints - HLv3 will have SoN - and CdG redux will have Dinant - two more good reasons to buy the reprinted core modules.

My $.02

KRL, Jon H
I'm not big on reprints for the sake of counters alone. I didn't get FK&C because it offered nothing really new. I didn't get the new Yanks for the same reason. I picked up RS for the updated Ch. G rules only. The only reason I'll pick up HLv3 is because it will contain the updated Ch. F rules. The new CDG will contain the HASL Dinant as well, so I'll pick it up.

I do like the look of Footprints new counters and may bite the bullet on a couple nationalities...
 
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