Underbelly hits

[Juan SantaX]

Hi all:

All six hexides of a hex are walls (like 10Y5). A Stug wants to get in the middle of hex to get hull down from all sides.

Can a ATR claim a underbelly hit if line of fire goes thru one wall hexside before reaching the actual wall hexside (vertex) the Stug is crossing?

TIA

 

[Sparafucil3]

Hi all:

All six hexides of a hex are walls (like 10Y5). A Stug wants to get in the middle of hex to get hull down from all sides.

Can a ATR claim a underbelly hit if line of fire goes thru one wall hexside before reaching the actual wall hexside (vertex) the Stug is crossing?

TIA

Can you make a VASL image to go with this so we can better see the question? -- jim

 

[Eagle4ty]

Hi all:

All six hexides of a hex are walls (like 10Y5). A Stug wants to get in the middle of hex to get hull down from all sides.

Can a ATR claim a underbelly hit if line of fire goes thru one wall hexside before reaching the actual wall hexside (vertex) the Stug is crossing?

TIA

I am thinking that as long as the firer is at the same level (or lower) as the vehicle entering into the hex it should be possible. As the example B9.21 points out the wall not being crossed would not present a valid LOS/LOF blockage to the Wall hexside being crossed as long as it's a wall of the same hex because as the example says and shows, "...(the) hexside never blocks LOS to any portion of its own hex". (I don't like the rule/example, but there it is).

 

[Juan SantaX]

 

[Juan SantaX]

Do the first wall make impossible a underbelly hit because the Stug is HD (even he is crossing one wall)?

I agree with Eagle4ty, first wall dont block LoS, but maybe it grants HD status....

 

[Sparafucil3]

Do the first wall make impossible a underbelly hit because the Stug is HD (even he is crossing one wall)?

I agree with Eagle4ty, first wall dont block LoS, but maybe it grants HD status....

That depends. I believe the ASL rules would allow it. If you were in Copenhagen for a tournament, I believe there is a tourney specific SSR prohibiting it. I guess Bo and Michael don't like it much either -- jim

 

[Robin Reeve]

It is a Schrödinger thing...
I would venture an uncertain answer : as the underbelly hit is scored as per a turret hit vs a HD vehicle, (D4.3 : ... "any such hit that would normally be a turret hit is instead an Underbelly Hit and uses the Aerial AF (C7.12). A hull hit is treated in the normal manner. If the firer has Bore Sighted the Location being exited, that DRM applies to his TH DR.") I would suggest that if the "turret" is hit, there is an Underbelly hit, but if the DR results in a Hull hit, it is a miss, because of the HD status of the vehicle.

I know that I don't have a clear support from the rules as written.
My reasoning is based on the idea that the Belly "replaces" the turret and that the hull is protected by the HD status...

 

[Juan SantaX]

That depends. I believe the ASL rules would allow it. If you were in Copenhagen for a tournament, I believe there is a tourney specific SSR prohibiting it. I guess Bo and Michael don't like it much either -- jim

Really? I didn’t know that. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark…

That situation isn't habitual, but it can happen in a few maps… I think the Stug can claim HD by D.4.21, but on the other hand, I don’t see why I cannot claim a underbelly hit…

 

[Juan SantaX]

It is a Schrödinger thing...
I would venture an uncertain answer : as the underbelly hit is scored as per a turret hit vs a HD vehicle, (D4.3 : ... "any such hit that would normally be a turret hit is instead an Underbelly Hit and uses the Aerial AF (C7.12). A hull hit is treated in the normal manner. If the firer has Bore Sighted the Location being exited, that DRM applies to his TH DR.") I would suggest that if the "turret" is hit, there is an Underbelly hit, but if the DR results in a Hull hit, it is a miss, because of the HD status of the vehicle.

I know that I don't have a clear support from the rules as written.
My reasoning is based on the idea that the Belly "replaces" the turret and that the hull is protected by the HD status...

Humm… maybe you are right…

 

[Sparafucil3]

Humm… maybe you are right…

ASO TSR 2
- No Snap-shots across walls/hedges

While not specifically covering Underbelly hits, if the TDs are consistent, the Underbelly hit should also be NA. That ruling would be up to @bo_siemsen / @hastrup to decide. -- jim

 

[Juan SantaX]

While not specifically covering Underbelly hits, if the TDs are consistent, the Underbelly hit should also be NA. That ruling would be up to @bo_siemsen / @hastrup to decide. -- jim

Agree. Same reason behind

 

[Robin Reeve]

It would be interesting, putting aside a TD decision (which of course makes sense), to have an answer from Perry on the topic.

 

[Sparafucil3]

It would be interesting, putting aside a TD decision (which of course makes sense), to have an answer from Perry on the topic.

I think this has been asked and answered. I haven't checked the Q&A but I seem to recall it. The rule is pretty clear, even if a little wonky. -- jim

 

[Eagle4ty]

Do the first wall make impossible a underbelly hit because the Stug is HD (even he is crossing one wall)?

I agree with Eagle4ty, first wall dont block LoS, but maybe it grants HD status....

Since LOS and LOF are essentially the same {See INDEX LOF} and since per the example B9.21 doesn't seem to take into account the 1st hedge crossed by the LOS/LOF, I wouldn't see how one could get HD status by the AFV if it otherwise qualified from an underbelly hit chance. As I have intimated previously, I think the rule is a bit wonky and I don't like the implications, but there doesn't seem to be any modifications to fire presented by the initial hedge/wall depiction crossed by the LOS/LOF be it IFT or TH.

 

[bo_siemsen]

While not specifically covering Underbelly hits, if the TDs are consistent, the Underbelly hit should also be NA. That ruling would be up to @bo_siemsen / @hastrup to decide. -- jim

The "snap shot across hedges" rules mainly was designed to be about infantry. Hasn't crossed our minds regarding underbelly hits. Also, that particular TSR could be written better. More clearly.

 

[Eagle4ty]

The "snap shot across hedges" rules mainly was designed to be about infantry. Hasn't crossed our minds regarding underbelly hits. Also, that particular TSR could be written better. More clearly.

However I believe the same principal must apply to any circumstances of a unit entering a hex. The real problem with the example is the hedge the squad is crossing as it enters the hex. Is that the TEM applied to the shot or is it the 1st hedge depiction that applies to the shot? If it is the latter, there's a good chance that a vehicle would be considered HD to the firer even though possibly being subject to an underbelly hit in other circumstances. I believe that is the Crux of Juan's question. Perhaps a Q to Perry would further clarify the intent/effects.

 

[Gordon]

Much like Americans and the British, ASLers are separated by a common language.

 

[Juan SantaX]

However I believe the same principal must apply to any circumstances of a unit entering a hex. The real problem with the example is the hedge the squad is crossing as it enters the hex. Is that the TEM applied to the shot or is it the 1st hedge depiction that applies to the shot? If it is the latter, there's a good chance that a vehicle would be considered HD to the firer even though possibly being subject to an underbelly hit in other circumstances. I believe that is the Crux of Juan's question. Perhaps a Q to Perry would further clarify the intent/effects.

Why dont you write it? You understand the issue and your English is more precise than my Spanglish…

TIA

 

[MichalS]

The "snap shot across hedges" rules mainly was designed to be about infantry. Hasn't crossed our minds regarding underbelly hits. Also, that particular TSR could be written better. More clearly.

The snap shot across hedges TSR I think relates not to entering but leaving the hex. The problem is that if the ATTACKER moves from a hex with a hedge hexside turned toward an enemy unit across a distant hexside (towards the back and out of LOS), in principle the DEFENDER can still fire a snap shot at said unit. Both the hedge hexside and the (other) hexside that is being crossed belong to the same hex. The unit would get TEM of the hedge as the LOS goes through it, but it is somewhat counterintuitive that the DEFENDER can see the far hexside of the hex as well.

 

[nekengren2]

It is a Schrödinger thing...
I would venture an uncertain answer : as the underbelly hit is scored as per a turret hit vs a HD vehicle, (D4.3 : ... "any such hit that would normally be a turret hit is instead an Underbelly Hit and uses the Aerial AF (C7.12). A hull hit is treated in the normal manner. If the firer has Bore Sighted the Location being exited, that DRM applies to his TH DR.") I would suggest that if the "turret" is hit, there is an Underbelly hit, but if the DR results in a Hull hit, it is a miss, because of the HD status of the vehicle.

I know that I don't have a clear support from the rules as written.
My reasoning is based on the idea that the Belly "replaces" the turret and that the hull is protected by the HD status...

I would play it Robin's way.

I see the underbelly rise above the distant wall................
I see the turret top as it see saws down the other side...................
Nothing below the wall is visible No HULL HIT possible..................
My shot is harder thus Turret Hit required...........
You either hit the underbelly or the turret top.........................I'll give you the underbelly which uses Aerial AF same thing