Unarmored vehicle and infantry in a woods/road

Will Fleming

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A normal IFT shot is fired in defensive final fire (no FFNAM and infantry not treated as on the road). The vehicle is abandonded in this case, but I don't think that matters.

The LOS does not cross the woods depiction.

Does the vehicle qualify for the +1 TEM on the resolution? (red by me)

A7.308 vs UNARMORED VEHICLES: All non-ordnance Direct Fire attacks vs unarmored vehicles/horse counters are resolved on the ★ Vehicle line of the IFT using the same IFT DR (after any applicable modification) for any Personnel target in the same Location. Unless using Defensive First Fire, non-ordnance attacks vs unarmored vehicles/horses affect all occupants of the Target Location including Infantry and other vehicles/horses which are present in the same Location [EXC: a vehicle in Bypass and out of the firer's LOS cannot be affected, nor can more vehicle/horse counters be affected by a DR than the highest KIA# of that column as randomly determined (e.g., a 6, 8 or 12 FP attack vs the ★ Vehicle Line could affect no more than three vehicles; a 2 or 4 FP attack could affect only two vehicles; a 1 FP attack could affect only one vehicle)]. If that Final DR is < the Kill Number listed for the IFT FP column used, the vehicle is eliminated [EXC: Unlikely Kill; 7.309]; if it equals the Kill Number, the vehicle is immobilized ; if the Final DR is ≤ half of the Kill Number, the vehicle is eliminated as a burning wreck and all of its PRC are eliminated. Otherwise, the PRC of an eliminated vehicle must check for survival (D5.6). The surviving PRC of an eliminated vehicle are not subject to further effects from that attack. However, the Vulnerable PRC of a vehicle that has not been eliminated may still be subject to a Collateral Attack (D.8).

B13.31 A moving unit in a combination woods-road hex is not eligible for the +1 woods TEM during Defensive First Fire (and is subject to FFMO/Interdiction) if the LOS does not cross a green woods symbol and the moving unit entered the hex at the road movement rate regardless of the relative elevations of the firer/target. (See A4.132) Otherwise, the normal woods TEM is in effect [EXC: a vehicle(s) in a woods-road hex is always considered on the road unless beneath a partial Trail Break counter].
 

jrv

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Doesn't the B13.31 EXC say the TEM does not apply? What subtle issue are you raising?

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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Doesn't the B13.31 EXC say the TEM does not apply? What subtle issue are you raising?
I think the vehicle gets the TEM, unless the LOS doesn't cross the woods depiction. Unlike non-moving Infantry, that gets the TEM regardless if how the LOS crosses the woods depiction. At least that is what I think the rule is trying to say.
 

jrv

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Can a non-fully-tracked vehicle exit a woods-road hex through a non-road hexside?
I think the vehicle gets the TEM, unless the LOS doesn't cross the woods depiction. Unlike non-moving Infantry, that gets the TEM regardless if how the LOS crosses the woods depiction. At least that is what I think the rule is trying to say.
Now I'm double-confused. Will said the LOS *doesn't* cross the woods depiction. From what you and he said, I would read that the TEM does not apply in this case. Is that correct?

JR
 

jrv

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Ok, now I'm back to single-confused. I don't see any subtlety in the rule.

JR
 
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Eagle4ty

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I believe the problem lies with misinterpreting or misreading the first sentence "using the same IFT DR (after any applicable modification) for any Personnel target in the same Location." as to mean the shot has to be modified simply because there are personnel (i.e. infantry) in the same location. This is only a SWAG, but I know myself how sometimes I get so focussed upon specific word or phrase I lose sight of the big picture.
 

bendizoid

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Yes a wheeled vehicle can leave the woods via minimum move.
Can a non-fully-tracked vehicle exit a woods-road hex through a non-road hexside?


Now I'm double-confused. Will said the LOS *doesn't* cross the woods depiction. From what you and he said, I would read that the TEM does not apply in this case. Is that correct?

JR
 

von Marwitz

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Yes a wheeled vehicle can leave the woods via minimum move.
Interesting. I did not know that.

It must leave the woods into "permissible terrain" though.

"D2.15 MINIMUM MOVE: A Mobile vehicle may attempt to move just one hex per MPh into permissible terrain if the MP Entry cost of that hex is > the vehicle's printed MP allotment. This is done by declaring a Minimum Move attempt and moving into the new hex while expending all its MP allotment (other than any towing MP (C10.1)/any starting MP required in the hex being exited) as it does so, making any Bog (8.2) DR required for normal entry of that hex, and (if still Mobile) being placed under a Motion counter. VCA change or entry of a blocked One-Lane bridge or Sunken Lane, are prohibited to a vehicle during a MPh in which it attempts a Minimum Move. See 2.24 for Reverse Minimum Move. If the (now in Motion) vehicle wishes to fire, 2.42 applies. A vehicle which stalls (e.g., German Vehicle Listing Notes F and H, and Russian Note M in Chapter H) while attempting to start may not claim a Minimum Move during that Player Turn."

This one will be hastily scribbled into Ye Olde Blacke Booke of von Marwitz's Quillets...

von Marwitz
 

klasmalmstrom

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Can a non-fully-tracked vehicle exit a woods-road hex through a non-road hexside?
I think you would need to do it in two MPh, since it will cost ALL to enter the woods portion of the woods-road hex. B13.41.
 

von Marwitz

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That is what I thought before, too. But now, I am no longer sure.

ALL and the cost for entering the next hex is "more than the printed MP allotment".

von Marwitz
 

klasmalmstrom

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Old (unofficial) Q&A:
B13.41 May a vehicle in a woods-road hex leave the road to enter the woods obstacle using all of
its MP and then enter an adjacent hex in the same MPh?
A. No. [Compil6]

6) 11 March 1997 (VFTT13)
 

bendizoid

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Sometimes it's nice to MM a non-fully tracked into woods to get concealment and/or hide from airplanes.
 

von Marwitz

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Sometimes it's nice to MM a non-fully tracked into woods to get concealment and/or hide from airplanes.
Yeah, but somewhat risky as the the usual DRM for a truck is likely to be +3 (normal GP, not fully tracked, truck type). On the other hand, this is worse for the average tank trying the same feat at 1/2MP allotment at +4 (normal GP, Entry at 1/2 MP allotment). As so often, it depends on the situation.

If there is not a lot of time pressure, it might be a way to take the opponent offguard in combination with woods-road entry and other terrain permitting. As we found out that it is a two MPh affair, the opponent might have some time to react though.

von Marwitz
 
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