Unannounced Database changes

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Reckall

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DB2000 is often subjected to “micro adjustments”, changes in the data which are not recognized by a new version number. To give you an example, the current “6.5.24” version actually covers three different set of files.

- One dated Feb, 6th 2005
- One dated Feb, 11th 2005
- One dated Mar, 10th 2005

By opening the .zips you can easily see that the size of many .dat files is different, even if the official version remains the same.

The reason why these changes are unannounced was discussed some time ago. Basically the rationale was that should the version go up for every small adjustment we'd be up to 6.100.100 by now.

However, be advised that changing the data within a .dat file COULD lead to problems with scenarios written using a different version of DB2000 – and this includes versions which do have the same version number, and so *only apparently* are the same database.

For example, if you download the Feb, 6th version of DB2000 6.5.24 and do build a scenario, and then pass the scenario to someone who downloaded the Mar, 10th version, the scenario, it is possible that crashes will occur, due to DB mismatches.

Generally speaking, scenarios found on HHQ are always adjusted for the latest version of DB2000. Anyway, just to avoid a possible point of confusion and to reduce the possible causes of crashes when investigating a scenario’s malfunctions, when someone reports a crash while checking/playing your scenario, always verify that you both are using the same version of DB2000 *down to the same date on the files*, just to be sure.

Nice Harpooning, and may the muse of imaginary wars always be with you!

Vince

[Edited on March, 11th 2005]
 
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emsoy

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The 'unannounced' database updates are very minor and have absolutely no effect on the scenarios. In fact, it simplifies things for you, the user. The updates address special requests by our scenario designers, nothing more. There is no point in updating the site and post an announcement on all forums if we change a ship's length from 175.2 to 175.3 meters or whatever.

I haven't heard of any problems whatsoever updating from one 'minor' database version to the next. Had I updated any parts of the database that would affect the scenarios, the database would of course have received a new version number and the scenarios updated.

So I'm really curious what made you post this announcement in the first place. Care to elaborate please?
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Reckall

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emsoy said:
The 'unannounced' database updates are very minor and have absolutely no effect on the scenarios. [snip] So I'm really curious what made you post this announcement in the first place. Care to elaborate please?
Sorry, but it wouldn't seem so. By exporting the three versions of DB2000 6.5.24 in Excel and running a quick check, I found a number of changes involving major platforms, from the one dated Feb, 6th to the one dated March, 10th.

To give an example, the Belgian F-16 which previously was found at the 9734 entry now is at the 19734

DB2000 6.5.24 Feb, 6th

9734 F-16AM Falcon MLU|Belgium/1998 FTR

DB2000 6.5.24 Mar, 10th

19734 F-16AM Falcon MLU|Belgium/1998 FTR

The result is that a scenario using this plane (not an uncommon platform, BTW) built with the Feb 6th version of the database and recieved/downloaded by someone using the Mar 10th version would crash on the latter PC - with nobody having a clue about why it happened.

And this isn't the only platform whose position in the list was changed. To check for yourself, just export the different versions of the database in Excel and do a comparision.

For this reason, I strongly suggest the community to follow the simple guideline we posted: always check that the DB2000 you are using is the same down to the file dates/sizes, even if the "official" version is the same.

Happy harpooning!

Vince
 
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emsoy

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And those of you who are looking for fuss-free scenarios, without any messy warnings and rantings, there's always the HarpoonHQ scenario section:

http://www.harpoonhq.com/harpoon3/scenarios/

Enjoy!

[EDIT] Recall and Herman modify their posts faster than I can blink. I also noticed that at least one of the originial cheapshot posts by Herman, for which this message was a reply, has disappeared. More mods will probably follow, so if my message suddenly start looking mis-placed, at least you'll know why. *sigh*

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Reckall

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And never forget to have a break from your Harpoon with a good glass of ICED COKE! :) :) :)


 
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Scully

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As someone that enjoys Harpoon, I'm going to ask a few things nicely, because what's going on here is starting to irritate me a great deal.

1. Unstick the thread on Unnannounced Changes...particularly if you're not going to allow the database developer to respond. Herman, if I recall, you're a big part of one of the two competing harpoon forums. This type of action causes makes me think you are not capable of being an objective moderator for the WarfareHQ forum. Find someone that is capable of being objective and resign. You're not doing yourself or Harpoon any good.
2. Stop the pissing match. Warfare HQ wasn't setup, as far as I know, to serve as a public forum for the two harpoon forums to air their dirty laundry. I was excited to see this forum added to Warfare HQ because I thought it would be a good central place for me to get Harpoon information at the same forum I get my other wargame information. Instead, I don't even want to come to this forum anymore because of the childish antics that are commonplace here.
3. If you have a problem with the database developer, take it up with him personally. As far as I know, the folks working on that database have put in literally thousands of hours to make it a comprehensive and accurate database. A database, by the way, I have never had any problems with. As a completely neutral observer and someone that was ignorant to the fact there was even any internal dissension in the Harpoon community, this whole thread is a not too clever attempt to discredit the database and it's developers. If you don't like the database, the developers, or the way it's managed, there's a simple answer...create your own.
4. All of you have done a significant amount of work to make Harpoon not only the best naval simulations available, but one of the best simulations period. If you can't get along, that's too bad, but don't allow your bad blood to damage Harpoon as a simulation. It deserves better.

Take care,
Brian
 

Herman Hum

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Scully said:
1. Unstick the thread on Unnannounced Changes...particularly if you're not going to allow the database developer to respond.
I've separated that thread since it is for information only. It lets players know exactly which DB version is required. When I am told of changes that threaten to crash over 25 scenarios, I am certainly going to alert the community to this fact; just like putting a "Warning: Bridge Out" sign. Any discussion can keep going right into this thread just as you are doing.
2. Stop the pissing match.
I don't think that anyone has contravened the forum posting guidelines. If I am mistaken, by all means, speak up. I understand that moderation is kept to a minimum on WHQ.
3. If you have a problem with the database developer, take it up with him personally. As far as I know, the folks working on that database have put in literally thousands of hours to make it a comprehensive and accurate database. A database, by the way, I have never had any problems with. As a completely neutral observer and someone that was ignorant to the fact there was even any internal dissension in the Harpoon community, this whole thread is a not too clever attempt to discredit the database and it's developers.
There are 50 scenarios built with the DB2k posted on WHQ. If designers didn't like it, they wouldn't use it. I think that you are mistaken.
 
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Scully

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Herman Hum said:
I've separated that thread since it is for information only. It lets players know exactly which DB version is required. When I am told of changes that threaten to crash over 25 scenarios, I am certainly going to alert the community to this fact; just like putting a "Warning: Bridge Out" sign. Any discussion can keep going right into this thread just as you are doing.
Herman...I wasn't born yesterday. If that's what you have to tell yourself to sleep at night, that's fine. You should at least have the decency to have a link to the database developers comments on the issue and not just leave it hanging out there like that.

Herman Hum said:
I don't think that anyone has contravened the forum posting guidelines. If I am mistaken, by all means, speak up. I understand that moderation is kept to a minimum on WHQ.
Just because the guidelines haven't been violated, doesn't mean the discussion is not a pissing match. I am not going to get in middle of this and I'm certainly not taking a side. I just want it to end. I don't even think it's an issue to be moderated. Those involved just need to stop.

Herman, You are the moderator and can do what you feel is best. Just know that I will not continue to participate in this Harpoon forum if this type of thing continues.

This is the last I'll be posting on this matter.

Take care,
Brian
 

emsoy

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A warning about unannounced changes in DB2000

Yeah, that's classy. Although, coming from Herman, I'm not exactly surprised...

The moderator of this forum (Herman) posts up messages meant to discredit the DB2K database and author, then locks the thread to make sure no-one can comment on his cheapshots. Clever.

About time this forum got a new moderator me thinks... *sigh*

[EDIT] The weird behaviour on this forum continues... Suddenly my post was moved to *another thread* ! ! Took me a second or two before I found the post again, but here it is :nuts:

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Reckall

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As the one who both had problems with DB2000 and personally wrote the warning for WHQ, I'll answer to some of your doubts.

Scully said:
1. Unstick the thread on Unannounced Changes...particularly if you're not going to allow the database developer to respond.
The database maintainer actually responded - you can find comments from both VCDH and Ragnar here.

Scully said:
Herman, if I recall, you're a big part of one of the two competing harpoon forums. This type of action causes makes me think you are not capable of being an objective moderator for the WarfareHQ forum. Find someone that is capable of being objective and resign. You're not doing yourself or Harpoon any good.
The problems that recently came out with DB2000 are problems that affect all the community. You simply risk finding out that the scenario you are building doesn't work anymore - as it happened to me - and not having a clue about why. It was not easy for me to track down the problem: unannounced changes to DB2000 were always branded as "minor". In this case they weren't (Belgian F-16s, Dutch Orions, French Mirages and many others). You can easily check this personally, if you wish. Major platforms, like the one in the example, had changed place in the DB, without warning. Every single scenario which used them was in trouble.

So what I did was to bring the problem to the developer, asking if it would have been possible to publicly announce every time that DB2000 was modified (like it is usually done in the software field). For various reasons he said he will not do that.

This, however, left the players using DB2000 with the risk of having their games crashing without knowing why. Since tracking down the problem took the best part of a week, but to fix it you only need to do some quick checking, I wrote the fix, the reasons for it, and posted it here for all to know. This was done for the community, to warn about the possibility of unexpected crashes and to give a way to avoid frustration, so I really do not understand why you say it does not any good to Harpoon.


Scully said:
2. Stop the pissing match. Warfare HQ wasn't setup, as far as I know, to serve as a public forum for the two harpoon forums to air their dirty laundry.
Dunno about tournaments being held for pissing :) But, speaking for myself, to warn about a problem in a widely used mod for Harpoon and giving a fix for it seems only logical to me. It happens on any other forum and with any other community I'm involved with :)

Scully said:
3. If you have a problem with the database developer, take it up with him personally.
Of course I did it, asking for a simpler fix: to warn about changes every time the database is modified. As I said, for various reasons he doesn't wishes to do that.

Scully said:
As far as I know, the folks working on that database have put in literally thousands of hours to make it a comprehensive and accurate database.
This is true for any piece of very good software, both commercial and done for free, but this doesn't means that there can't be problems. Harpoon had problems, Falcon 4.0 had bugs, many mods I do use for my games (like the ones for "Morrowind") show problems. But they are/were great games, and got better and better simply by listening to feedback.

Scully said:
A database, by the way, I have never had any problems with.
As a matter of fact, never did I, until recently. But, on the other way, I never had problems with my video card too, until a month ago. When they showed up I looked for causes (the cooling fan was broken) and then for a way to fix the problem.

Scully said:
As a completely neutral observer and someone that was ignorant to the fact there was even any internal dissension in the Harpoon community, this whole thread is a not too clever attempt to discredit the database and it's developers.
If you feel the database and its maintainers come out as "discredited" by my findings, I'm sorry, but the warning I gave is based of *facts* (BTW, I do not agree with your harsh judgment - I only would like that they pay a little more attention when they do change things without informing anybody). Anyway, if you judge that these facts are not complimentary to the maintainers of the database, I feel that you should talk about it with them.


Scully said:
If you don't like the database, the developers, or the way it's managed, there's a simple answer...create your own.
Why, if the problems can be fixed? I would be happier if they were at the source, but as you see, fixing them is not big deal, at the end. And DB2000 is still great!

Scully said:
All of you have done a significant amount of work to make Harpoon not only the best naval simulations available, but one of the best simulations period. If you can't get along, that's too bad, but don't allow your bad blood to damage Harpoon as a simulation. It deserves better.
On this, I fully agree. This is the very reason I spent a day exporting data from three different versions in Excel and going through them to find what happened, what had been changed with nobody knowing, and which the consequences could have been. Now I can return to scenario designing/playing knowing that a potential source of frustration for the Harpoon player has been defused. Consider it as my best contribution to the community :)

Vincenzo
 
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Herman Hum

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emsoy said:
Yeah, that's classy. Although, coming from Herman, I'm not exactly surprised...

The moderator of this forum (Herman) posts up messages meant to discredit the DB2K database and author, then locks the thread to make sure no-one can comment on his cheapshots. Clever.

About time this forum got a new moderator me thinks... *sigh*
Hogdriver said:
1) If, as a part of your post, you feel compelled to engage in name-calling, derogatory or denigrating comments, or racial, ethnic or sectarian slurs, you need to take a break, and reconsider what you are going to post. The racial, etc .comments WILL NOT be tolerated.
Your comments are noted as contrary to the forum guidelines posted at: http://www.war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12313 and will not be tolerated. Consider yourself warned. Personal attacks at either members or moderators will not be allowed.

The discussion you are seeking is already ongoing in a previous thread. Accordingly, this thread is hereby merged with aforementioned thread.
 
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emsoy

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No disrespect,

But you need to read the guidelines yourself Herman :eek:

9) This (or any other) forum should not become a place for anyone to air their petty, partisan agendas. If you want to do so,you should find a more appropriate venue.
And:

3) If you are going to engage in innuendo, rumor-mongering, character assassination or stereotyping, please do it elsewhere. I would like to see this forum proceed at above a juvenile level.
Oh and Herman, don't forget this one:

The overriding principle should be this: this should be an intellectual, but also fun, forum. Nobody comes here wanting to be flamed, insulted, referred to by racial, ethnic, sectarian or other slurs.
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Okay a quick note to anyone who might actually be following this pointless thread:

The scenarios hosted at the HarpoonHQ are built with the DB2000 which we have designed. The scenarios are maintained by rebuilding them with a program developed by myself, which allow them to stay current and healthy. There is a new database version 8-15 times a year, roughly one every month.

The scenarios here on the WHQ have also been built with the DB2000, but Herman & Co are using an early beta version of the maintenance tool that they managed to steal from us. This version has many bugs, and may cause scenarios to be corrupted.

So I guess the basic problem is that damage has been done to their scenarios by a beta-version maintenance tool, used without authority, and now the user is complaining it's no longer working for him.

:nuts: :nuts: :nuts: :dead:

As a result, all the scenarios found in the WHQ section posted by Herman & Co are unstable and prone to crashes.

The scenarios on the HarpoonHQ site by contrast are all maintained and experience no problems :smoke:

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Reckall

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emsoy said:
So I guess the basic problem is that damage has been done by a beta-version maintenance tool, used without authority, and now the user is complaining it's no longer working for him.
Actually no: I created the scenario by myself (while away for work) with the scenario editor, and found that it crashed when I moved it from my laptop to my desktop. Since the .SCN file hadn't changed, I was puzzled - until I discovered that the version of DB2000 on lap and desk, even if branded as "almost identical" had BIG DIFFERENCES in the ID numbers of key platforms.

Examples of changed IDs:

DB2000 6.5.24 - Feb, 6th

9504 AH-64D Apache|Netherlands/2000
9734 F-16AM Falcon MLU|Belgium/1998
1285 Mirage F.1C-200|France/2000-03
11570 P-3C Orion Update II |Netherl/98-05
1812 Mirage 50EV|Venezuela/
1813 F-5A Freedom Fighter|Venezuela/1980
1814 F-16A Falcon|Venezuela/1982
1817 F-5A Freedom Fighter|Venezuela/1993
1883 SA.342M1 Gazelle|France/1993-02/HOT
1983 F-16A Falcon|Venezuela/1998
1997 F-16AM Falcon MLU|Belgium/1999


DB2000 6.5.24 - Feb, 11th

19504 AH-64D Apache|Netherlands/2000
19734 F-16AM Falcon MLU|Belgium/1998
21285 Mirage F.1C-200|France/2000-03
21570 P-3C Orion Update II |Netherl/98-05
21812 Mirage 50EV|Venezuela/
21813 F-5A Freedom Fighter|Venezuela/1980
21814 F-16A Falcon|Venezuela/1982
21817 F-5A Freedom Fighter|Venezuela/1993
21883 SA.342M1 Gazelle|France/1993-02/HOT
21983 F-16A Falcon|Venezuela/1998
21997 F-16AM Falcon MLU|Belgium/1999

Ragnar, since you are here, and contributing to the discussion, I'll ask this one last time: why you changed the platform ID numbers of a number of major platforms in DB2000? I cannot see any change in the platform’s data. Why no announcement of the ID change? *This* is the root to many the problems we players and designers had in the last days; and the platforms involved weren't exactly "minor", since they caused my scenario to crash, thus the need for the warning to the community I wrote.

What was the reason for that? This is all I would like to know. Have your say.

Because, you know, also this behaviour of yours while maintaining the DB2000 can cause crashes on scenarios ;)

As always, nice hapooning, and have fun!
 

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I'm sorry but we have never encountered problems of this type.

What's strange is that my earlier offer to check your scenario was refused :confused:

I suspect the scenario has been rebuilt with the stolen maintenance tool, and you do not want to send over the scen since the maintenance tool 'tags' all scenarios it updates.

Nice try :bored:

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Herman Hum

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emsoy said:
The scenarios here on the WHQ have also been built with the DB2000, but Herman & Co are using an early beta version of the maintenance tool that they managed to steal from us. This version has many bugs, and may cause scenarios to be corrupted.

As a result, all the scenarios found in the WHQ section posted by Herman & Co are unstable and prone to crashes.
This notion is utter rubbish and total nonsense. My scenarios are built and re-built with old-fashioned sweat, elbow grease, and the Scenario Editor.

I’m going to give this thread another YANK to get it back to its original purpose. This thread is about changes in the DB2000 within the same version number.

I have had a chance to examine all the information presented by Reckall and I must concur with his findings. These changes seem to afflict 25 of the 50 Harpoon3 scenarios currently posted on WHQ but none of the HHQ files. They work just fine with the older DB versions but seem to experience major problems only when newer versions of the DB are released. And the same problems every single time.

So, I will repeat Reckall’s question One Last Time:

Reckall said:
Ragnar, since you are here, and contributing to the discussion, I'll ask this one last time: why you changed the platform ID numbers of a number of major platforms in DB2000? I cannot see any change in the platform’s data. Why no announcement of the ID change? *This* is the root to many the problems we players and designers had in the last days; and the platforms involved weren't exactly "minor", since they caused my scenario to crash, thus the need for the warning to the community I wrote.

What was the reason for that? This is all I would like to know. Have your say.

Because, you know, also this behaviour of yours while maintaining the DB2000 can cause crashes on scenarios
 

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Herman Hum said:
This notion is utter rubbish and total nonsense. My scenarios are built and re-built with old-fashioned sweat, elbow grease, and the Scenario Editor.
Herman, you are not telling the truth. (again... :nuts: )

In fact, the scenarios you got posted here on the WHQ are tagged.

You even admitted to a HHQ member that you are indeed using the stolen software :dead:

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Herman Hum

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Again, another attempt at diversion to such a straight-forward question
Reckall said:
Ragnar, since you are here, and contributing to the discussion, I'll ask this one last time: why you changed the platform ID numbers of a number of major platforms in DB2000? I cannot see any change in the platform’s data. Why no announcement of the ID change? *This* is the root to many the problems we players and designers had in the last days; and the platforms involved weren't exactly "minor", since they caused my scenario to crash, thus the need for the warning to the community I wrote.

What was the reason for that? This is all I would like to know. Have your say.

Because, you know, also this behaviour of yours while maintaining the DB2000 can cause crashes on scenarios
You have been asked this same question four separate times and you have even demanded an opportunity to answer the question and then not answered it. Of course, you are under no obligation to answer but it would have been nice to know the answer. So, this thread is no longer viable.
 
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