von Marwitz
Forum Guru
Two Heroes man a MG. With which modifier can they fire it?
von Marwitz
von Marwitz
Two Heroes firing a MG - at which modifier?
- Thread starter von Marwitz
- Start date
BattleSchool
Elder Member
Based on the Q&A below, I would be led to believe that they would get -2 Heroic DRM out to the Normal Range of the MG.
Binchois
Too many words...
Yes. It's even in the rules:
A15.24 HEROIC DRM: A hero/any FG (even if just another SMC) he is part of (providing the hero is firing at Normal Range of either his inherent FP or his weapon counter) may deduct one from its IFT/CC resolution DR. This DRM is cumulative with that of any applicable leadership DRM/additional heroes present in the same attack.
There might be some reason to doubt since the two heroes combined do not make a FG (i.e. are not two separate but fire-grouping units):
A7.5 FIRE GROUP (FG): Two or more units/weapons joining together to make a combined fire attack are a FG. Two SMC manning the same SW are not a FG as they are considered one combined firing unit.
...but A15.24 seems very clear that additional heroes need only be "present" in the attack to add their DRM cumulatively. They do not need to represent a separate member/component of the attack.
Eagle4ty
Forum Guru
There is also this:
15.23 WEAPONS USE: A hero may use a non-MGJ7 SW as if he were a leader but applies a -1 DRM to its To Hit or IFT DR. In addition, a hero uses a MG (at full FP) or other SWJ7 normally requiring two men to fire by adding +1 to its To Hit or IFT DR as appropriate (which is negated by the heroic DRM). A hero forfeits his own inherent FP during any phase in which he uses a SW.
So in conjunction with A7.5 neither of their heroic DRMs would be negated by adding the +1 TH/IFT DRM as the MG would be considered fully manned.
I was the trigger for the rules query in another thread and Eagle4ty's reasoning matches my reading of the rules.
BattleSchool
Elder Member
I'd be careful about taking this reasoning too far.
I think the Q&A was necessary, because it's not obvious from the rules that a Hero assisting another SMC in manning a SW would qualify for the Heroic DRM. The rules explicitly state that a Hero who his firing "his weapon counter" at Normal Range qualifies for the Heroic DRM. Given that the 6+1 in the Q&A example possesses the MG, it's not clear that the MG also "belongs" to the Hero.
Moreover, I think that being "present in the same attack" implies more than mere "presence." Range is also a factor. I'd have hard time buying an argument that suggested three Heroes could claim to be firing an MG as one combined firing unit in order to qualify for a -3 Heroic DRM at any range beyond four hexes.
I agree that 3 heroes would not qualify as 2 SMC firing a MG are considered a combined firing unit per A7.5, as Binchois pointed out above. So 3 would be a "firing unit" and a "extra". A7.5 does not distinguish between a Leader possessing a MG with a Hero assisting, the Hero possessing and the Leader assisting, 2 Heroes or 2 Leaders. The 2 SMC in effect become a mini-HS (or Quarter Squad) for the purposes of firing.
The extra Hero's -1 DRM would only apply if within its normal range of 4. So 3 Heroes at 4 hex range with a German HMG would get 8 FP and -3 DRM, but at 6 hex range would get 7 FP (7.5 FP if adding up multiple locations/occurrences) and -2 DRM. At 6 hexes the 3rd Hero is wasted in nearly all situations.
The extra Hero's -1 DRM would only apply if within its normal range of 4. So 3 Heroes at 4 hex range with a German HMG would get 8 FP and -3 DRM, but at 6 hex range would get 7 FP (7.5 FP if adding up multiple locations/occurrences) and -2 DRM. At 6 hexes the 3rd Hero is wasted in nearly all situations.
Binchois
Too many words...
Caution accepted. My response to the OP assumed that the two heroes were combining to fire the same SW. If both were firing the SW, they could combine to apply their heroic DRM to the attack (-2 DRM with no +1 modifier for an under-manned SW)
If the second hero was merely fire-grouping with the first and his MG, the second hero would indeed need to add his FP and be firing within his normal range to apply his heroic DRM (so now just -1 after the two heroic DRMs plus the +1 for an under-manned MG). This is, IMO, what the rules intend.
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
This assumption is correct. My thoughts behind this were if the MG would fire at +0 (as both Heroes might be somehow involved in thus neutralizing their Heroic DRM) or at -1 (kinda like both 'holding' the MG but only one of them firing and thus -1,-1, +1). I did not think of the -1,-1 variant that it apparently seems to be.
von Marwitz
Eagle4ty
Forum Guru
I would have no problem with applying muliple hero(es) Heroic DRMs to the MG out to its maximum range even tough only a single person (SMC) is probably possessing the MG (i.e. the trigger puller). The additional Hero(es) would be assistant gunners providing the necessary assistance to the person pulling the trigger, resupplying ammo, lubricants, barrel changes, and most importantly determining targets (just as any normal crew of a crew served weapon would). In effect they are all operating the weapon system together. 5 SMC=HS. a HS cannot use its IFP in conjunction with firing a SW. Now if you could get 5 heroes together and man a single MG we may have this discussion again with me taking a differing view, but as to a purely hypothetical situation, I don't see a problem with at least 5 heroes manning a MG and all applying their heroic DRMs to its shot.
Binchois
Too many words...
In retrospect, I think Battleschool was on the right track here, though a question to Perry/MMP would be a good idea. Has one been sent?
As was pointed out, a hero may apply his heroic DRM out to the normal range limits of his SW. Two SMC may fire a SW at the same time, but can the second one really claim the SW to be his? A4.42 makes clear that only one unit can ever possess a SW, an accompanying leader adding his IPC to the portage is only assisting:
So can a second hero ever claim that the SW is also "his" for purposes of A15.24? I still tend to think so, but it is questionable.
But it is clear that any hero above two must at least possess/fire their own SWs, or else be limited in applying their DRM only out to their normal 1 FP range (4 hexes). Any number of them can fire-group together and apply their DRMs together, but only two of the can collectively be said to possess and fire the SW itself. The rules never allow three SMC to either possess, portage, or fire a SW.
As was pointed out, a hero may apply his heroic DRM out to the normal range limits of his SW. Two SMC may fire a SW at the same time, but can the second one really claim the SW to be his? A4.42 makes clear that only one unit can ever possess a SW, an accompanying leader adding his IPC to the portage is only assisting:
A4.42 INHERENT PORTAGE CAPACITY (IPC): ...A SMC may never portage more than two PP although one SMC can add its IPC to that of any one Good Order Infantry unit to increase the IPC of the latter, provided the two units start the phase together and move together as a stack.
So can a second hero ever claim that the SW is also "his" for purposes of A15.24? I still tend to think so, but it is questionable.
But it is clear that any hero above two must at least possess/fire their own SWs, or else be limited in applying their DRM only out to their normal 1 FP range (4 hexes). Any number of them can fire-group together and apply their DRMs together, but only two of the can collectively be said to possess and fire the SW itself. The rules never allow three SMC to either possess, portage, or fire a SW.
klasmalmstrom
Forum Guru
There is this Q&A saying a Hero's DRM applies if he assist a 6+1 leader. So if the 6+1 was another SMC (e.g., another Hero) I don't see that the assisting Hero's DRM would not appy.
A4.43, A15.23, & A15.24
Does the attack of Machinegun possessed by a 6+1 Leader assisted by a Hero qualify for the Hero -1 modifier? What would the
total modifier be if the Machinegun was possessed by the Hero and assisted by the 6+1?
A. Yes. -1.
Does the Heroic -1 DRM of a Hero assisting a leader who possesses a MG only within the inherent FP-range of the Hero (i.e., 4
hexes) or to the normal range of the MG possessed by the leader (for example 16 hexes in case of a German HMG)?
A. The normal range of the MG.
A4.43, A15.23, & A15.24
Does the attack of Machinegun possessed by a 6+1 Leader assisted by a Hero qualify for the Hero -1 modifier? What would the
total modifier be if the Machinegun was possessed by the Hero and assisted by the 6+1?
A. Yes. -1.
Does the Heroic -1 DRM of a Hero assisting a leader who possesses a MG only within the inherent FP-range of the Hero (i.e., 4
hexes) or to the normal range of the MG possessed by the leader (for example 16 hexes in case of a German HMG)?
A. The normal range of the MG.