Two College Guys and a HT....

[sc4joe]

Question No 1: If i have a HS/SQ in a M3(MMG), or any other HT or vehicle, is there a rule that restricts the number of times I can unload and reload back in MPh? HT is stopped and haven't expended any MPs. The Passenger unloads and reenters the HT for 2MFs and proceeds to repeat this once more (for a total of 4MFs)

Which leads to question no 2: Per US Vehicle Note 30, the two side mounted MMGs may be removed by the passengers (in this case, the HS is busy humping (removing) the two MMGs off the HT and dropping it at the feet of a squad waiting outside. But, can the MA (HMG) be removed at next opportunity by the HS? Or, since US Vehicle Notes E, H, N, P basically states only the secondary MGs are removable by passengers, this is not allowed.

I guess that the US Vehicle 29 M3A1 HT allows both the MMG and the HMG (MA) to be removed by the passenger leaving the HT as unarmed per US Vehicle Note I (from E,H,I,P).

Thanks in advance, I'm a little brain-dead right now and figured that I'd allow the community to tell me I've overlooked a fundamental rule instead of reading/interpreting the RB.

Joe

Clarification: The HT started its MPh, stopped. It will only expend MPs in conjunction with the HS loading and unloading. It is basically a store full of goodies (MGs) for the HS to pillage (Recover). In the ensuing question, as like most scenarios, J143 Circle of Doom, prohibits voluntary abandonment by the crew so I'm using the HS to recover as many MGs in this MPh and maybe another MPh if I deem the HMG (MA) worth it and if it iseligible to be recovered by the PASSENGER.

Again, thanks in advance for any insights. Please cite a rule so I can read up.

 

[bendizoid]

Question one: the infantry and halftrack have to start the movement phase in the same hex to load.

 

[bendizoid]

Question two: it also has a crew which you could use to unload the HMG.

 

[sc4joe]

I've addressed both those issues....the HS started as a passenger in a HT that was stopped in its MPh.

Crew cannot voluntarily abondon vehicle in my scenario and I've also addressed that In my question above. The subsequent question was basically whether the passengers can take the MA off of this type of HT and leaving it unarmed to the displeasure of the crew (IRL, LOL, I would be pissed if a passenger took off my MA of my HT when i gave them a ride)

 

[Binchois]

Hi Joe,

I can't answer Question 2 any better than you can, though I think Chapter H means to say that only the crew can use, and thus unload, the primary AA.

As for Question 1: Assuming there is no issue with PPs and IPC (which it doesn't sound like there is), I can think of only two things that might cause a problem here, both which may simply be RB wording issues:

D6.4 Loading: [the vehicle] may move in the same MPh after they load, but it may not move in that MPh prior to their loading (including the expenditure of a MP to bring a Motion vehicle to a stop).​

D6.5 Unloading: Disembarking Personnel must expend one MF to be placed beneath the vehicle and are additionally considered to have already expended one MF for every one-fourth of the MP allotment (FRU) used by the vehicle during that turn prior to unloading.​

Because of both these issues, I think a question to MMP might be in order for clarification. I would think, your attempted actions should create the following sequence:

1) you would unload at 1MF and a quarter of the ht's MP. Continuing...
2) you would drop the weapon and re-board. 2 MF; half MP. Here, 6.4 might come into play (though I doubt that this MP expenditure would count as moving - probably the RB is taken literally here). Otherwise, we continue...
3) Here's where I do think there is an issue. The SQ/HS must spend a 3rd MF (ht now at three quarters), but also, the ht had already spent half it's MPs. That should cost 2 more MFs which gives it 5MFs total - which it can't do (Dbl time, not allowed: A4.5).

I know this seems weird, since the ht expended its MPs only because the HS/Sq was expending its MFs. Still, I am not sure how to simply ignore the rule. Possibly this is an oversight, possibly the designers would be happy to let this rule limit multiple loading/unloading. Possibly this is just me looking for some reason to restrict an activity that seems a bit strange to me! Who knows!

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Question No 1: If i have a HS/SQ in a M3(MMG), or any other HT or vehicle, is there a rule that restricts the number of times I can unload and reload back in MPh?

I don't think so there is a rule like that for a ht - no.

 

[Binchois]

I don't think so there is a rule like that for a ht - no.

I agree that there is no such rule, but what of step 3 in my sequence?

If D6.5 be followed to the letter, it seems that a unit could load-unload-then-load (4MF) a stationary HT, but does not have the MFs to unload-load-unload-load (5MFs).

...I admit this sounds a bit odd (possibly lawyer-y), but it is what the RB says.

 

[jrv]

D6.4 "A vehicle must be stopped to embark Passengers/Riders. It may move in the same MPh after they load, but it may not move in that MPh prior to their loading (including the expenditure of a MP to bring a Motion vehicle to a stop)."

I understand "move" ("it may not move") to mean that it may not expend MP for any purpose prior to loading. A vehicle that unloads in its MPh, even if it began stopped and the first thing it did was unload, would not be eligible to embark Passengers/Riders.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I understand "move" ("it may not move") to mean that it may not expend MP for any purpose prior to loading. A vehicle that unloads in its MPh, even if it began stopped and the first thing it did was unload, would not be eligible to embark Passengers/Riders.

Good point.

And here is a Q&A that supports that:

D6.4
Can a vehicle spend any MPs prior to load infantry not including 1 MP to bring a Motion vehicle to stop, if not a moving vehicle as per C.8?
A. No, it cannot spend any MP.

So once a vehicle spends any MP it can't load Passengers anymore.

 

[von Marwitz]

Here is a link to a related thread on how to get the most (weapons) out of a M3A1 ht. Might be interesting:

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/us-ht-m3a1-a-heavy-weapons-trove.116500/

von Marwitz

 

[Binchois]

And here is a Q&A that supports that:

D6.4
Can a vehicle spend any MPs prior to load infantry not including 1 MP to bring a Motion vehicle to stop, if not a moving vehicle as per C.8?
A. No, it cannot spend any MP.

So once a vehicle spends any MP it can't load Passengers anymore.

Yes! Thanks Klas, the Q&A confirms what I thought was the weaker of my two arguments against the OP action...

And thanks for the link - quite a lot in there!

 

[sc4joe]

In the situation I described originally, let me clarify. The HT has started stopped. It will not expend any MPs to start or stop....only "expends" MPs in conjunction with the unloading/loading MFs expended by the HS.

Thanks

 

[jrv]

In the situation I described originally, let me clarify. The HT has started stopped. It will not expend any MPs to start or stop....only "expends" MPs in conjunction with the unloading/loading MFs expended by the HS.

If it unloads, it may not embark in that same MPh. The limit on the number of times it may unload and reload is that it may unload once and not reload.

JR

 

[sc4joe]

JRV, can you cite a rule??

 

[klasmalmstrom]

JRV, can you cite a rule??

D6.4:
"A vehicle must be stopped to embark Passengers/Riders. It may move in the same MPh after they load, but it may not move in that MPh prior to their loading..."

The Q&A confirms that the red part does not men physically move, but just expending MP, and once a unit (un)loads the vehicle spends MP.

 

[jrv]

JRV, can you cite a rule??

I already have: Two College Guys and a HT...., Two College Guys and a HT....?

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

The HT has started stopped.

To get the drop on one of Klas' favs for once...

HT = Heavy Tank
ht = Halftrack

von Marwitz

 

[Binchois]

In light of this Q&A, it does beg the question why the RB doesn't simply say:

D6.4 "A vehicle must be stopped to embark Passengers/Riders. It may move in the same MPh after they load, but it may not have expended even a single MP prior to their loading."

Any thoughts on why such cumbersome wording (often attempts to rewrite the rules lead to even more complications - one must sympathize with the designers!).

 

[sc4joe]

Ok. Thanks. So, NO type of MP may be expended prior to loading. Obviously, not the stopping MP also. I should've consulted the Q and A / Perry Sez before posting...

 

[Mr Incredible]

Question one: the infantry and halftrack have to start the movement phase in the same hex to load.

Not true.

The inf can move into the hex the HT is in and then load.

See the EX after D6.4.