Tunnel for Hall 4 Red October Factory

stuh42asl

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I realize this item as not put on the map, but a documentary about the fight for hall 4 made mention of an tunnel running from Hall 4 to the finger gully. This allowed the Russians to get reinforcements to the hall without being seen or interdicted. So maybe this should have been placed on the map and rules designed to cover it. This happens to be an important part to the tactics the Russians used. For the campaign games this is a very important.
 

Justiciar

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There is a scenario which allows for this, and how my OPFOR played it...I don't have access to the scenarios...but is one which Mike Balis designed...it is the one that has loads of wire around the German position.

I can't comment as to why there is not a permanent one by rule, but your observation is valid.
 

jrv

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There is a scenario which allows for this, and how my OPFOR played it...I don't have access to the scenarios...but is one which Mike Balis designed...it is the one that has loads of wire around the German position.

I can't comment as to why there is not a permanent one by rule, but your observation is valid.
I'm not seeing any scenario that has a tunnel or similar from the gully to the factory.

JR
 

CTKnudsen

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I was all happy to spend 60 FPP and build 2 tunnels, one from Hall 4 to Z25, and the second from Z25 to the gully. But a close look at B8.6 tells us that both tunnel entrances must be at the same elevation, making such a tunnel illegal.

However, I note that the designers have thoughtfully provided manhole Locations in pretty much all the gullys, (right back to the original RB). I now see this as a design for effect thing. Yes, there was a tunnel that allowed Russians to move from the bank into Hall 4 in safety. But instead of making an SSR for it, I think it's just as viable to allow a slightly less safe mode of transport that allows the Russians to reinforce any factory they want, not just Hall 4.

Incidentally, I saw something a few months ago that talked about a tunnel that led from the Commissar's House into the Barrikady halls. Can't remember where I saw it though.
 

Justiciar

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I'm not seeing any scenario that has a tunnel or similar from the gully to the factory.

JR
Not precisely to the gully....but same DFE.

RO7 the Russians use the 2 x Fort Blogs for 2x Tunnels and this (mimics / DFEs) the tunnel allowing the 10 MMC and SMC and gear who would otherwise be subject to MG attack (crossing OG or poor cover) to move into the Hall (albeit in several waves), and from there attack across better ground with better cover.... OR that is one option for the Fort Blgs..... and was how my OPFOR did it, though unable to accomplish the VC.
 

CTKnudsen

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Whoa, hold on a minute! O6.21 specifically states that in RF, tunnel entrance/exits may be at different levels. Forget what I said before, sewers are junk, what was I thinking, bring on the tunnels!
 

JimWhite

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But a close look at B8.6 tells us that both tunnel entrances must be at the same elevation, making such a tunnel illegal.
Unless I'm reading something incorrectly...here is another on of those ASL head-scratchers:

In the picture below (area selected for illustrative purposes only) as CT said per B8.6 a tunnel is not allowed from GG24 to EE25. EDIT: The tunnel is allowed here per O6.21

However, per Red Factories SSR16: "A tunnel entrance/exit may cross a cliff hexside provided that tunnel begins or ends in the lower-level hex and "crosses" that cliff hexside, and the Base Level of that cliff hex is one level lower than that of the hex at the other end of the tunnel."

I believe this means a tunnel would be allowed from GG24 to FF25.

Thoughts?

10391
 
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JimWhite

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Whoa, hold on a minute! O6.21 specifically states that in RF, tunnel entrance/exits may be at different levels. Forget what I said before, sewers are junk, what was I thinking, bring on the tunnels!
LOL...I just posted about tunnels crossing cliff hexsides...but I was just reading O6.21 and saw the same thing you did and that tidies things up nicely.
 

jrv

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Not precisely to the gully....but same DFE.

RO7 the Russians use the 2 x Fort Blogs for 2x Tunnels and this (mimics / DFEs) the tunnel allowing the 10 MMC and SMC and gear who would otherwise be subject to MG attack (crossing OG or poor cover) to move into the Hall (albeit in several waves), and from there attack across better ground with better cover.... OR that is one option for the Fort Blgs..... and was how my OPFOR did it, though unable to accomplish the VC.
Just looking at it while you could do that, given the German setup restrictions if you had the inclination to move from the CC setup area into Hall 4 you could just walk through BB23. The only place in the German would have LOS would be the upper level of X17, and given that they probably also want to set up in X14, that would leave the lower level of X17 vulnerable to seizure by an attack supported by Smoke in Y19, assuming the MTR gets Smoke. I have to believe the lower level of X17 is one of the German fortified locations, and it has a squad in it. As I don't really have a better use for the Soviet fortified building locations you still could do it, but I don't see much point.

To me it looks as if the Soviets want to attack out of the CC setup area to keep the Germans spread. If the MTR and two HMGs are in DD16 providing fire support that's three MMC in the CC setup area already.

JR
 

Justiciar

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Just looking at it while you could do that, given the German setup restrictions if you had the inclination to move from the CC setup area into Hall 4 you could just walk through BB23. The only place in the German would have LOS would be the upper level of X17, and given that they probably also want to set up in X14, that would leave the lower level of X17 vulnerable to seizure by an attack supported by Smoke in Y19, assuming the MTR gets Smoke. I have to believe the lower level of X17 is one of the German fortified locations, and it has a squad in it. As I don't really have a better use for the Soviet fortified building locations you still could do it, but I don't see much point.

To me it looks as if the Soviets want to attack out of the CC setup area to keep the Germans spread. If the MTR and two HMGs are in DD16 providing fire support that's three MMC in the CC setup area already.

JR
As in war...things go bad...if no Smoke...I can see the bodies pile up. Your call.
 

jrv

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Unless I'm reading something incorrectly...here is another on of those ASL head-scratchers:

In the picture below (area selected for illustrative purposes only) as CT said per B8.6 a tunnel is not allowed from GG24 to EE25. EDIT: The tunnel is allowed here per O6.21

However, per Red Factories SSR16: "A tunnel entrance/exit may cross a cliff hexside provided that tunnel begins or ends in the lower-level hex and "crosses" that cliff hexside, and the Base Level of that cliff hex is one level lower than that of the hex at the other end of the tunnel."

I believe this means a tunnel would be allowed from GG24 to FF25.

Thoughts?

View attachment 10391
Wouldn't the tunnel entrance still have to be in eligible terrain, i.e. building, pillbox, brush or woods?

JR
 

jrv

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As in war...things go bad...if no Smoke...I can see the bodies pile up. Your call.
If the Soviets don't get the Smoke, they probably won't make the X17 attack quite as boldly. The Germans still can't risk the loss of X17 by setting up in the upper level (unless they don't set up in X14, which I'm bum-rushing the first turn too). Even if the Germans set up on the upper level of X17 I plan for them to have something else to do the first turn than fire at units moving in my backfield. And again, if you're playing the Soviets and want to set up the tunnels, knock yourself out. Walking above ground would be (slightly) quicker and I don't think all that dangerous. Again I don't see much use for the Soviet fortified locations, either as such or traded for tunnels.

JR
 

von Marwitz

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Incidentally, I saw something a few months ago that talked about a tunnel that led from the Commissar's House into the Barrikady halls. Can't remember where I saw it though.
That might have been this post from me:


Cheers,
von Marwitz
 

JimWhite

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Wouldn't the tunnel entrance still have to be in eligible terrain, i.e. building, pillbox, brush or woods?

JR
I've always taken the SSR literally and since they use the word "hex" for both ends I just assumed you could do it...and would have no problem with my opponent interpreting things that way. But I could be mistaken.

If so I suppose you could put an entrenchment there to solve the problem?
 

jrv

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I've always taken the SSR literally and since they use the word "hex" for both ends I just assumed you could do it...and would have no problem with my opponent interpreting things that way. But I could be mistaken.

If so I suppose you could put an entrenchment there to solve the problem?
The rule says the tunnel may cross a cliff hexside, but says nothing about changing the requirements for the in-hex terrain.

I don't think an entrenchment by itself makes the terrain tunnel-legal. If the terrain is otherwise tunnel-legal, the tunnel may be specified as coming out in an entrenchment in that terrain or not.

JR
 

Justiciar

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I have never seen you play a scenario without putting down a firelane, much less win one. It is inconceivable.

JR
I don't need them against you...your pieces end up "back in the box" by variety of other means, many through your own ineptness... The number of scenarios I have won with FL are too many to take up space in this thread, which in any case is not about FL....
 

stuh42asl

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As a rule update concerning the tunnel for the finger gully to Hall 4:

A tunnel runs from RO EE25 to RO Z21. Due to the restrictive size, a maximum of three squads plus leaders and support weapons may utilize the tunnel. To successfully navigate and exit into Hall 4 takes 3 turns, rolls for lost status as per sewers is not applicable, and due to the terrain of Hall 4, exiting the tunnel into Z21 is not considered hazardous movement unless an KEU is adjacent to hex Z21. Exiting the tunnel will take the squads entire movement rate for that turn at which time, it can claim the terrain modifiers regarding defensive first/ final fire unless a KEU is adjacent to hex Z1. Exiting the tunnel is not considered a concealment loss activity unless there is LOS to hex Z21 at which time concealment is lost.

This rule applies to RO scenarios, as well as the RO campaign games.

For those that are better versed regarding the English language, can you please proof read and adjust as required. Also please consider possible changes, I have play tested this during my CG, it seems to work , but many sets of eyes and play testing by others will improve it.

Thank you

Shane
 
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