Trenches

[Heppy]

The trenches in Vicksburg have really impressed me. Defence really is the strongest form of war as Clausewitz argued. I was lucky enough to walk the ground at the Bloody Angle at Spotsylvania this Spring and it moved me.

I see that trenches are added by the scenario designer. I hope that before the series reaches the Overland Campaign they can be dug tactically, in the course of a game. Just imagine: huge maps; very long scenarios; trenches being dug.

It would be mad, unplayable, and yet we would see the genius of Grant in the Wilderness - manoeuvring an army in that hell - and yet, and yet, attacking (in desperation?) at Cold Harbor.

Bring it on guys.

Regards,
Heppy

 

[Lord_Valentai]

Just a question...what DO trenches actually do? Are they like special embankments? I only ask because they cause disruption on entering, so they really aren't that useful for defence...are they?

 

[Heppy]

Just a question...what DO trenches actually do? Are they like special embankments? I only ask because they cause disruption on entering, so they really aren't that useful for defence...are they?

Doesn't the defender traditionally start off in the trench? Shovel in hand, digging?

 

[Lord_Valentai]

Yes, but that isn't too useful if you have two lines, or reinforcements. So you try to reoccupy a trench and get disrupted. It would be much better if they acted like embankments in the ACW Talonsoft series...rather than abatis with defensive features.

 

[Heppy]

Yes, fair point on the two lines thing - I was being a bit flip.

But wouldn't you expect infantry to 1) find a trench an obstacle to movement (see the photos from Petersburg - those boys could dig) and 2) disrupt (whatever that is supposed to represent in reality - disorganise, confuse?) a unit in line in moving into it?

Even a friendly trench with the parapet on the far side and some means of getting in on the home side is going to be a difficult obstacle for infantry in formation.

 

[Lord_Valentai]

Aye, you are very right...and since usually the only way to move into a trench is melee...yeah.

You raise a good point, sir.

 

[Lord_Valentai]

Sorry for the double post, but two questions:

1 - Is there a way in the map editor to make the trenches face the same way? As it is, when I try to do them, they randomly face all directions. I don't expect the trench facing does anything, does it?
2 - Is there a way to change them so that they do not disrupt? I was planning on having a scenario with breastwork building turned off, but with these trenches to replace them. Is there a way that can be done...or is it something set in the program core?

Cheers.

 

[rahamy]

1 - Is there a way in the map editor to make the trenches face the same way? As it is, when I try to do them, they randomly face all directions. I don't expect the trench facing does anything, does it?

No, that's program controlled. It randomly pulls from the images in the 3DSymbols100.bmp & 50 files.

2 - Is there a way to change them so that they do not disrupt? I was planning on having a scenario with breastwork building turned off, but with these trenches to replace them. Is there a way that can be done...or is it something set in the program core?

That is controlled inside the program. The only values you can change are:

Trench Values
Movement: 2 Fire: -30%

Both located in the PDT file.

 

[Lord_Valentai]

Fair enough.

Just by way of comparison, what would be the relative value of say the Unfinished Railroad at 2nd Bull Run, and the Trenches at Petersburg?

I'm trying to get a feel for the values...because if I set the trench values too high, it will make attacking them impossible....

 

[Heppy]

I'm trying to get a feel for the values...because if I set the trench values too high, it will make attacking them impossible....

Cold Harbor? :nervous:

 

[Lord_Valentai]

Precisely. I'd expect those late war ones would be 60-70%

 

[Heppy]

Precisely. I'd expect those late war ones would be 60-70%

Ascribing values is really trick isn't it? I love Grant's retort after somebody tried asking him a searching question about the storming of the Missionary Ridge position at Chattanooga: 'Well it was an impregnable position' or similar.

And yet it was stormed for all that. For me this is part of the interest in military history: the almost infinite variability and interplay of factors. You can be as good as you like but sh1t still happens.