Transition Question: How to calculate Modified To Hit?

pjh

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Hi everyone,

I'm slowly transitioning from ASLSK to ASL, and ran into something about Ordnance TH in ASLSK that I can't figure out where it is in ASL.

Basically, on the TH Charts that ASLSK provides (in #2 or #3), they list Infantry Target Type starting at range 1, then range 2, then range 3-6, 7-12, 13-18, 19-24, whereas ASL (C3 TO HIT TABLE) has Range 0-6, 7-12, 13-18, etc. From my calculations, I've managed to duplicate most of the tables from ASLSK using the rules in C3, but its range 1-2 that has me puzzled. In particular:

ASLSK#3 has the following for a German 75L ITT: at range 1, the TH# is 10 with a CH on a 5, at range 2, the TH# is 9 with a CH on a 4, and Ranges 3-6 the TH# is 8 with a CH of 3.

For Range 3-6, this is exactly what ASL would expect. The Base TH# for range 0-6 is listed as 8. The Modified TH# would also be 8. And the CH (from C 3.74) is 3, that is, "the Final TH DR is < half the modified TH#, or" etc. (ASLSK seems to ignore the stuff after "or..." which makes sense since it is more complicated.)

However, I can't figure out what's going on with ASLSK with Range 1 and 2. Sleuthing a bit, I figured out that the TH DRM for ASLSK does not include the -1 and -2 for 1-hex/2-hex i.e., case L, for ITT, so I'm guessing that the designers "built" that into the range 1 TH# of 10 and the range 2 TH# of 9, although in ASL this would not be in the MODIFIED TH# but rather just a modification to the DR. But as far as I can tell the effect is the same.

However (and here's my question if you've followed this far!) why is the CH for ASLSK at range 1 a 5 and for range 2 a 4? From what I can tell, in ASL the CH for range 1 should be a 3 and for range 2 a 3 (i.e., < half of the modified TH# of 8). Is this something the designers just added into ASLSK or am I missing a rule in ASL for calculating the CH on the ITT for ranges 1-2?

(Incidentally, ASLSK accidentally omitted range 0, but I'm told I can use the Range 1 numbers for Range 0.)

Thanks in advance for any answers you might have!
 
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Paul M. Weir

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OK, first remember that ASLSK is a chopped down version of ASL and somethings will be simplified or even incorrectly calculated.

In most cases a TH calculation involves adding up the C5 stuff and subtracting the C4 stuff and that's good enough. However there are a few cases like ITT CH where that can be wrong.

So - ITT at 1 and 2 hexes:

The Basic TH is 8 and at that range there are no C4 mods and thus the Modified TH is also 8. So you get a ITT TH on a Final TH DR <4 (IE <=3) as you have correctly figured out.

You then roll your TH giving an Original DR X and then apply whatever C5 DRM. Assume the only relevant DRM are for range (Case L) of -2/-1. So for 1 hex range your Final DR is X-2 and for 2 hex range it is X-1.

Now if X-2 or X-1 <=3 then X <= 5 (1 hex) or <=4 (2 hex). So your ASLSK values of 5 and 4 are correct for the Original DR but the Final DR must still be <=3.

0 Hex aka Same Hex suffers Case E of a +2 (Case L is not applicable), so you would need an Original DR of 1 (not possible) or have an Armour Leader with a -1 or -2 DRM to get a CH on a 2 or 3 respectively. FFMO and/or FFNAM also could make a CH possible for Same Hex fire.

The confusion comes from the ASLSK having bundled all the range relevant C4 and C5 modifiers into a simplified table.

While mutual (partial) cancelling of C4 and C5 works fine at 1-12 hexes, it's the longer range stuff that can trip you up. At 19 hexes the Black ITT Basic TH is 5 and say you have a L gun. The Modified TH is 5+1 = 6. So you will get a CH on a Final DR <6/2 or <3 or <=2. If you used the C4 TH modifier as a reversed DRM then you would expect a CH on a DR <5/2 or <2.5 or <=2 and that reversed TH modifier would give you a CH on an Original TH of <=3 which would be incorrect. In effect the C4 modifiers for *, L or LL are halved for CH purposes while applying in full in determining whether there is any hit at all.
 
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jrv

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Hi everyone,

I'm slowly transitioning from ASLSK to ASL, and ran into something about Ordnance TH in ASLSK that I can't figure out where it is in ASL.

Basically, on the TH Charts that ASLSK provides (in #2 or #3), they list Infantry Target Type starting at range 1, then range 2, then range 3-6, 7-12, 13-18, 19-24, whereas ASL (C3 TO HIT TABLE) has Range 0-6, 7-12, 13-18, etc. From my calculations, I've managed to duplicate most of the tables from ASLSK using the rules in C3, but its range 1-2 that has me puzzled. In particular:

ASLSK#3 has the following for a German 75L ITT: at range 1, the TH# is 10 with a CH on a 5, at range 2, the TH# is 9 with a CH on a 4, and Ranges 3-6 the TH# is 8 with a CH of 3.

For Range 3-6, this is exactly what ASL would expect. The Base TH# for range 0-6 is listed as 8. The Modified TH# would also be 8. And the CH (from C 3.74) is 3, that is, "the Final TH DR is < half the modified TH#, or" etc. (ASLSK seems to ignore the stuff after "or..." which makes sense since it is more complicated.)

However, I can't figure out what's going on with ASLSK with Range 1 and 2. Sleuthing a bit, I figured out that the TH DRM for ASLSK does not include the -1 and -2 for 1-hex/2-hex i.e., case L, for ITT, so I'm guessing that the designers "built" that into the range 1 TH# of 10 and the range 2 TH# of 9, although in ASL this would not be in the MODIFIED TH# but rather just a modification to the DR. But as far as I can tell the effect is the same.

However (and here's my question if you've followed this far!) why is the CH for ASLSK at range 1 a 5 and for range 2 a 4? From what I can tell, in ASL the CH for range 1 should be a 3 and for range 2 a 3 (i.e., < half of the modified TH# of 8). Is this something the designers just added into ASLSK or am I missing a rule in ASL for calculating the CH on the ITT for ranges 1-2?

(Incidentally, ASLSK accidentally omitted range 0, but I'm told I can use the Range 1 numbers for Range 0.)
ASL has a separate DRM, point blank range Case L [C6.3], that is not a DRM in ASLSK but rather figured into the TH table. In ASL the Modified TH# for Infantry Target Type at range one is eight but the final TH DR would be modified by minus 2 for point blank range, so an Original DR of five becomes a Final DR of three, i.e. a critical hit in ASL. In ASLSK there is no point blank range DRM, so the modified TH# is made into a ten, and a critical hit is also scored on a five (assuming no other DRM of course). The two ways of thinking about the table and modifiers will produce the same results.

JR
 

Paul M. Weir

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The two ways of thinking about the table and modifiers will produce the same results.JR
Not always, in ASL at least, see last paragraph of post #2.
 

jrv

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However there are a few cases like ITT CH where that can be wrong.

...

While mutual (partial) cancelling of C4 and C5 works fine at 1-12 hexes, it's the longer range stuff that can trip you up. At 19 hexes the Black ITT Basic TH is 5 and say you have a L gun. The Modified TH is 5+1 = 6. So you will get a CH on a Final DR <6/2 or <3 or <=2. If you used the L TH modifier as a reversed DRM then you would expect a CH on a DR <5/2 or <2.5 or <=2 and that reversed TH modifier would give you a CH on an Original TH of <=3 which would be incorrect. In effect the C4 modifiers for *, L or LL are halved for CH purposes while applying in full in determining whether there is any hit at all.
I am somewhat confused by, "If you used the L TH modifier as a reversed DRM then you would expect a CH on a DR <5/2 or <2.5 or <=2 and that reversed TH modifier would give you a CH on an Original TH of <=3 which would be incorrect." Was that suggested? The case L TH modifier does not apply at range 19 hexes, so I am not quite following what you are saying.

I will admit not having extensively audited the tables, but as far as I know the numbers are all correct. In ASLSK EP#1 a British 77L is shown as having an ITT TH# of 6 at range 19-24 and a CH# of 2. Do you know of a particular case where the numbers disagree?

JR
 

Paul M. Weir

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I am somewhat confused by, "If you used the L TH modifier as a reversed DRM then you would expect a CH on a DR <5/2 or <2.5 or <=2 and that reversed TH modifier would give you a CH on an Original TH of <=3 which would be incorrect." Was that suggested? The case L TH modifier does not apply at range 19 hexes, so I am not quite following what you are saying
Sorry, that should have been "C4" not "Case L". Fixed in the original.

From memory, there was an error in one version of ASLSK 2, corrected in the current printing, but in general the SK tables are OK. The point about the last paragraph is that using a C4 modifier as a reverse C5 DRM does not always work correctly, mainly in CH situations.
 

jrv

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Sorry, that should have been "C4" not "Case L". Fixed in the original.

From memory, there was an error in one version of ASLSK 2, corrected in the current printing, but in general the SK tables are OK. The point about the last paragraph is that using a C4 modifier as a reverse C5 DRM does not always work correctly, mainly in CH situations.
I don't see the Original Poster suggesting using the C4 Modifier as DRM at any range. Again as far as I know the ASLSK calculation should produce the same results as the ASL calculation. I believe any discrepancies are unintended errors in the ASLSK tables.

JR
 

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Ah! Thanks for the in-depth answers. I hadn't thought to apply the -1/-2 for 1-hex/2-hex to the DRM thus obtaining the "simplified" ASLSK CH numbers for those ranges. More importantly, it appears I'm not missing anything in the ASL rules for calculating TH and CH numbers! Onward to Chapter D!

(It is curious that ASLSK simplified the ITT by including Case L for infantry, but they didn't do the same for VTT. That had me stumped for a bit.)
 

jrv

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It is curious that ASLSK simplified the ITT by including Case L for infantry, but they didn't do the same for VTT. That had me stumped for a bit.
As a wild guess, the breaking out of the numbers is necessary for the ITT because the CH numbers change. Players get the formula used in ASL wrong all the time. Pre-computing the values reduces the likelihood of similar mistakes in ASLSK while also simplifying play. For the VTT a CH is on an original two only, so there is no change in the CH at range 1-2. If you leave the DRM as a DRM you don't need to add two columns to the VTT, which is a (minor) space saving on the chart. If you weren't aware of the ASL version and the reason for the change, you probably wouldn't think that the two should be similar in the ASLSK version.

JR
 

Paul M. Weir

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I don't see the Original Poster suggesting using the C4 Modifier as DRM at any range. Again as far as I know the ASLSK calculation should produce the same results as the ASL calculation. I believe any discrepancies are unintended errors in the ASLSK tables.

JR
He didn't. I just pointed out a potential misapplication of the C4 and C5 modifiers. From other posts in GS, it is a thing that some people get wrong. I was trying to give pjh as much information to enable him to transition from ASLSK to ASL, including warning about a pitfall that others very occasionally fall into. You should know my style by now: to cover everything relevant and more information is better than less.
 

TheSQLGuru

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Peter, PLEASE do yourself a favor and stick to the most basic of infantry scenarios for quite a while!!! There are SOOO many things to be learned at that level before crowding your mind with a whole bunch of other stuff.

Best of luck in your progression to the big leagues! We will miss you down in Starter Kit land!
 

Sparafucil3

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Ah! Thanks for the in-depth answers. I hadn't thought to apply the -1/-2 for 1-hex/2-hex to the DRM thus obtaining the "simplified" ASLSK CH numbers for those ranges. More importantly, it appears I'm not missing anything in the ASL rules for calculating TH and CH numbers! Onward to Chapter D!

(It is curious that ASLSK simplified the ITT by including Case L for infantry, but they didn't do the same for VTT. That had me stumped for a bit.)
A lot of people get ITT CH's wrong because the apply the DRM to the Modified TH# rather than the DR. Assume no other modifiers and range 1 to target. Recall, an ITT CH a Final DR < Half of the Modified TH #. If you apply the DRM incorrectly to the TH#, you they a Modified TH# of a 10 (range 1 - 6). A CH on a DR of 2 - 4 (DR must be < 5). If you apply it correctly on the DRM )Modified TH# of 8), you'll achieve it on a final DR of 2 - 5 (DR -2 must be < 3). Given that there are 4 ways to roll a 4 on two dice, correctly applying the DRM to the Original TH DR increases the odds of an ITT by 11%. The SK TH Tables took away all this confusion for you. Fortunately for you, the ASL tables will give it all back. :) -- jim
 

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A lot of people get ITT CH's wrong because the apply the DRM to the Modified TH# rather than the DR. Assume no other modifiers and range 1 to target. Recall, an ITT CH a Final DR < Half of the Modified TH #. If you apply the DRM incorrectly to the TH#, you they a Modified TH# of a 10 (range 1 - 6). A CH on a DR of 2 - 4 (DR must be < 5). If you apply it correctly on the DRM )Modified TH# of 8), you'll achieve it on a final DR of 2 - 5 (DR -2 must be < 3). Given that there are 4 ways to roll a 4 on two dice, correctly applying the DRM to the Original TH DR increases the odds of an ITT by 11%. The SK TH Tables took away all this confusion for you. Fortunately for you, the ASL tables will give it all back. :) -- jim
And it is truly amazing how many experienced player STILL muss this up!
 

boylermaker

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I wish I got this wrong, then my life would be easy! Instead I remember that these are the two ways to do it, that only one is right, and spend what feels like ages pulling up the same part of chapter C every time I roll something that could plausibly be a CH. And I don't seem to be the only one, either.
 

jrv

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I wish I got this wrong, then my life would be easy! Instead I remember that these are the two ways to do it, that only one is right, and spend what feels like ages pulling up the same part of chapter C every time I roll something that could plausibly be a CH. And I don't seem to be the only one, either.
You apply the Dice Roll Modifiers to the Dice Roll to get a final DR. Once you convince yourself that the terminology is important and relevant, it becomes easier to remember. What I found not obvious was that applying the DRM to the DR (instead of modifying the TH#) makes a difference.

JR
 

Mister T

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I like the current system because it gives lower odds of scoring a CH on the ITT at long ranges and much higher odds at PBR, otherwise storming small Guns by frontal assault would be too easy.
 
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