Transfer & Conditional (Blue) PTC

Tater

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Is transfer a ? loss? I think it is but wanted to get a confirmation.

On a CTC (IIFT = Blue PTC) is rolled, do the concealed units still take the TC for "Booby Trap" purposes?
 

Eagle4ty

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Is transfer a ? loss? I think it is but wanted to get a confirmation.

On a CTC (IIFT = Blue PTC) is rolled, do the concealed units still take the TC for "Booby Trap" purposes?
I believe so. (A7.37 INCREMENTAL IFT (IIFT): ... The IIFT is used exactly as the standard IFT...).
 

apbills

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I don't think it is that simple. The "Conditional PTC" is not even addressed in the body of the rules, but rather in the footnote:

"10A 7.37 INCREMENTAL IFT: The Incremental IFT and its accompanying article ("One-Half FP") first appeared in the ASL Annual '89. (In 1998, both were reprinted in Classic ASL.) Thereafter, various commentaries appeared in several succeeding Annuals. At one time, the ASL community seemed seriously divided over whether the IIFT should either be declared the official IFT or should be relegated to the dustbin. Since that time, however, consensus has settled upon treating the IIFT as just another option rule, and that is how we present it here in the 2nd edition."
"One of the several criticisms leveled against the IIFT was that, by adding additional PTC effects for higher Final DRs in the various intermediate FP columns, the IIFT strips concealment more readily than does the regular IFT. To counter this criticism, some suggested making all those additional PTC effects conditional, so that they only applied to unconcealed units and thus would not strip concealment too easily. We tend to agree with this thinking, and seriously considered changing the IIFT in that manner. In the end, however, we decided to leave the IIFT essentially unchanged from when it was originally published in 1989, but highlighted such "conditional" PTCs on the IIFT in blue. Anyone concerned about concealment being stripped away too easily can adopt the "conditional" PTC as a house rule."

The bold is my emphasis. The reasoning is clearly given as a way to prevent easier concealment stripping, however, the bolded text says they only apply to unconcealed units. So you have multiple choices - a) you use the IIFT without CTC, A7.37 indicates, b) you use CTC per the footnote (and they don't apply at all against concealed units, or c) you use CTC and they do apply against concealed units for everything except concealment loss.

IMO, if you use them, you should be going with choice b), however, use of them is optional, just like use of the IIFT, so it is up to the players to decide between themselves. The reasoning behind not applying them at all to concealed units would be that any/all TC's, not just concealment loss, are increased by their introduction, so if you are concerned about how concealed units are affected, you might as well include all effects.
 

apbills

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As for the first question, yes. it would fall under Case C, whose exceptions are bolded.
"If it engages in any other action [EXC: using a radio/field phone; Spotting; taking a PAATC (and Leader DRM applied to such a PAATC) not caused by a vehicle entering its Location; SW/Gun repair attempts, dropping SW; taking a Set DC NTC]; e.g., attempts to entrench, kindle a Fire, Deploy, Recombine, make a Sniper/PF/MOL/ATMM Check, rally a broken unit, apply Leadership DRM [EXC: PAATC; Armor Leader], use Clearance, place SMOKE grenades, etc.
 

Tater

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I don't think it is that simple. The "Conditional PTC" is not even addressed in the body of the rules, but rather in the footnote:

"10A 7.37 INCREMENTAL IFT: The Incremental IFT and its accompanying article ("One-Half FP") first appeared in the ASL Annual '89. (In 1998, both were reprinted in Classic ASL.) Thereafter, various commentaries appeared in several succeeding Annuals. At one time, the ASL community seemed seriously divided over whether the IIFT should either be declared the official IFT or should be relegated to the dustbin. Since that time, however, consensus has settled upon treating the IIFT as just another option rule, and that is how we present it here in the 2nd edition."
"One of the several criticisms leveled against the IIFT was that, by adding additional PTC effects for higher Final DRs in the various intermediate FP columns, the IIFT strips concealment more readily than does the regular IFT. To counter this criticism, some suggested making all those additional PTC effects conditional, so that they only applied to unconcealed units and thus would not strip concealment too easily. We tend to agree with this thinking, and seriously considered changing the IIFT in that manner. In the end, however, we decided to leave the IIFT essentially unchanged from when it was originally published in 1989, but highlighted such "conditional" PTCs on the IIFT in blue. Anyone concerned about concealment being stripped away too easily can adopt the "conditional" PTC as a house rule."

The bold is my emphasis. The reasoning is clearly given as a way to prevent easier concealment stripping, however, the bolded text says they only apply to unconcealed units. So you have multiple choices - a) you use the IIFT without CTC, A7.37 indicates, b) you use CTC per the footnote (and they don't apply at all against concealed units, or c) you use CTC and they do apply against concealed units for everything except concealment loss.

IMO, if you use them, you should be going with choice b), however, use of them is optional, just like use of the IIFT, so it is up to the players to decide between themselves. The reasoning behind not applying them at all to concealed units would be that any/all TC's, not just concealment loss, are increased by their introduction, so if you are concerned about how concealed units are affected, you might as well include all effects.
There are multiple cases where a normal PTC do not affect certain units but must still be rolled for Booby Traps. Since the "official" IIFT doesn't have "CTC" but rather a PTC in blue I am thinking the BT roll should still happen.
 

apbills

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There are multiple cases where a normal PTC do not affect certain units but must still be rolled for Booby Traps. Since the "official" IIFT doesn't have "CTC" but rather a PTC in blue I am thinking the BT roll should still happen.
A PTC in Blue IS a CTC, per the footnote, if you choose to use "CTC". Your choice of options appears to be either "a)" or "c)", which is perfectly fine given the entire IIFT and its use in any form is optional.
 

Robin Reeve

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There is a difference between the IIFT and the CTC.
The IIFT is an optional rule.
The CTC is a house rule, only suggested in the footnote.
 

apbills

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There is a difference between the IIFT and the CTC.
The IIFT is an optional rule.
The CTC is a house rule, only suggested in the footnote.
Not sure what distinction you are trying to make.
They are effectively the same thing - i.e., both sides have to agree on it prior to playing. Barring agreement, the IFT is played.
 

Robin Reeve

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Not sure what distinction you are trying to make.
I am not "trying to make" a distinction.
Footnote 10A does.
24047
The IIFT is an optional rule.
The CTC is a house rule.
That players must agree for both doesn't give them similar status.
Logically, for an example, the CTC house rule should not be accepted in a tourney.
 

apbills

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I will confess I have never thought about such etiquette regarding what is allowed to be played at a tournament. Is this due to players feel its a hassle ofto tell their opponent 'no' if they ask about playing something optional? Is there something about a tournament that changes the dynamic in regard to accepting to play optional/house rules? Nancy Reagan is surely disappointed.
 

Larry

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Yet another reason for avoiding the IIFT. It doesn't make a difference in the game outcome. It is tedious to employ. The unbalancing effect mitigated by the optional use of the CTC requires an extra-regular pre-game negotiation.
 

Nearmiss

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Disagree. After a short learning curve, as there is with the implementation of any new rule, I found the IIFT easy to use and much more satisfactory from a realism point-of-view. No longer do I count up the FP of a FG and then have to figure out wich MGs I want to leave out because they don't help in the final calculation.. The negotiation is a simple yes/no question.
 

Robin Reeve

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The main reason I use the IFT is that I have most results memorized.
I hardly need to look it up during play.
I can concentrate more on my tactics that way.
 

apbills

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I think I am just in the "whatever" group. I use which ever one my opponent wants to use, although if using the IIFT I use the conditional PTC. I have not really seen a difference in how I play based on which one is being used, although it is clear each has its 'sweet spot' column that you like to hit. I spend more time repeating 'snakes, snakes, snakes' in my mind before I roll. Seems to work as well as anything else.
 

Tater

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Yet another reason for avoiding the IIFT. It doesn't make a difference in the game outcome. It is tedious to employ. The unbalancing effect mitigated by the optional use of the CTC requires an extra-regular pre-game negotiation.
If tedious rules bother you, why are you playing ASL?
 

Tater

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The main reason I use the IFT is that I have most results memorized.
I hardly need to look it up during play.
I can concentrate more on my tactics that way.
That's as good a reason to use the ift as any to use whatever table/version one wants.

I support an ASL players right to choose... I am opposed to all forms of fire table bigotry. Fire table shaming is the scourge of ASL!
 
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