Tournament Likes / Tournament Hates....

Martin Mayers

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
4,569
Reaction score
1,989
Location
The Gulag
First name
Gulagwanker
Country
llUkraine
Thinking back to Spara's post above, what are the general thoughts on cash prizes. If there was a pot of money left over after expenses (ie. prizes) I was assuming we would probably pass it on to charity. But does a small cash prize make the tournament more competitive (nothing wrong in that), bring in factors which otherwise would not exist, etc. ?
 

Sparafucil3

Forum Guru
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
11,335
Reaction score
5,070
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
Thinking back to Spara's post above, what are the general thoughts on cash prizes. If there was a pot of money left over after expenses (ie. prizes) I was assuming we would probably pass it on to charity. But does a small cash prize make the tournament more competitive (nothing wrong in that), bring in factors which otherwise would not exist, etc. ?
People don't play ASL for cash money prizes. I was honestly surprise when I got cash at ASLOk for a mini. Now the plaque that hangs on my wall ... OK, they don't even honestly hang on my wall either. ASL is supposed to be fun. The competition of it is also a semi-important factor, but at the end of the day, it's a knitting circle for men. It should stay that way IMO. -- jim
 

newege

Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
31
Reaction score
33
Location
MAGA: Make ASL Great Again
Country
llUnited States
Thinking back to Spara's post above, what are the general thoughts on cash prizes. If there was a pot of money left over after expenses (ie. prizes) I was assuming we would probably pass it on to charity. But does a small cash prize make the tournament more competitive (nothing wrong in that), bring in factors which otherwise would not exist, etc. ?
I think merchandise credits from sponsors or ASL related giveaways are a good prize.
 

Spencer Armstrong

Canard de Guerre
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
8,624
Reaction score
1,682
Location
Gainesville, FL
First name
Spencer
Country
llUnited States
I'm still on the hunt for soft-ball sized d20. I'll keep you posted. :)
LOL. Love it.

P.S. Couldn't pass up the knitting reference.
I have no shame. Been using stitch counters for gaming purposes since college (when pre-made solutions were rare as hen's teeth). They're still super handy.
 

BattleSchool

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
5,110
Reaction score
1,924
Location
Ottawa GMT -5/-4
Country
llCanada
Already have those in stock. The transparent ones come in ruby, sapphire, emerald, pearl, and onyx, while the opaque version comes in black, ivory, green, red, and blue.

Bigger would more imposing, especially when wielded by a TD during an adjudication.

"The TD's decision is final!" "Or do we need to involve the d20?"
 

Ric of The LBC

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2017
Messages
1,881
Reaction score
1,838
Location
Peoples Republic of California
Country
llUnited States
From my experience (having been on both sides of the fence), adjudication has never been a source of drama. It is a convenient and speedy way to end up a game if things are cleary explained to participants. Having a jury of three members avoid laying the blame on anyone for the decision. Here's how it's done from my experience. It is preferable that the members have already some knowledge of the scenario. The three jury members sits around the table, and the first player is called. One of the jury members ask him two questions:

1. "What are your remaining forces on board?" Then the player shows one by one its remaining OB (this is useful as sometimes jurors might not be aware of units behind level counters, of units with captured SW on top, etc. The player will also tell where its remaining HIP units are. With that, it will be possible to make a static assessment of the situation. No more than one minute for this

2. "What are your plans to win this scenario?" The player then explains how he is going to try to reach the victory conditions. jury members might ask a few questions, but these should be factual and should not reveal any opinion from the juror at this stage. No more than two minutes for this. Then it is possible to make a dynamic forward-looking assessment of the situation.

Then repeat with the second player.

At the end, the members are given a short period of time to reflect (one minute max.) and put their decision on paper (as a % of chance for one side to win). To avoid groupthink and the natural tendency of some to try to influence others (it happens all the time when a collective decision has to be made), i prefer that no discussion takes place between jury members, otherwise it voids the collective nature of decision-making. Then the papers are handed over to the TDs, which makes the average and announce the final decision to players. Each TD has to decide before the tournament what would be the threshold to declare a win rather than a draw (51% if the TD does not want the possibility of a draw; 60-65% otherwise).

The whole adjudication process should not take more than 7-8 minutes per game, with the possibility to run several adjudications in parallel.

(PS: in Copenhagen this year, as i said, i did not complain about the adjudication process, which was as always fair, it's just that i did not know that a draw would be counted as a loss. Had i known this, i would have asked to roll to determine the winner as this option is also foreseen in the Copenhagen rules (and it was convinced at the time that judges would surely go for a draw if they were asked).
Hi,

I attended this years West Coast Melee and played my 2nd and 3rd ever ftf games. I watched a game be adjudicated in this exact same manner. Very interesting to watch as a noob.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,357
Reaction score
10,204
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
I have no problems with adjucation. I think this is mainly an issue for competitive players out for the win. All others should either be able to make it a draw if the issue is in doubt or agree who has the best chances to end the scenario in their favor.

von Marwitz
 

Martin Mayers

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
4,569
Reaction score
1,989
Location
The Gulag
First name
Gulagwanker
Country
llUkraine
I have no problems with adjucation. I think this is mainly an issue for competitive players out for the win. All others should either be able to make it a draw if the issue is in doubt or agree who has the best chances to end the scenario in their favor.

von Marwitz
You can't draw at ASL.....it's impossible :)
 

BattleSchool

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
5,110
Reaction score
1,924
Location
Ottawa GMT -5/-4
Country
llCanada
I have no problems with adjucation. I think this is mainly an issue for competitive players out for the win. All others should either be able to make it a draw if the issue is in doubt or agree who has the best chances to end the scenario in their favor.

von Marwitz
Draws are an added complication for TDs, and IMO are best avoided. A draw interferes with ranking systems based on points. Awarding both players a loss for a "draw" result also complicates matters. Apart from the difficulties that draws create for seeding the next round, they can occasionally skew the results in favour of players who won less games, but nevertheless scored more points based on the performance of their opponents during the tournament.

That said, I'd be interested in hearing what seasoned TDs have to say about permitting a draw result, and how this impacts the overall standings in a tournament.
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
Already have those in stock. The transparent ones come in ruby, sapphire, emerald, pearl, and onyx, while the opaque version comes in black, ivory, green, red, and blue.

Bigger would more imposing, especially when wielded by a TD during an adjudication.

"The TD's decision is final!" "Or do we need to involve the d20?"
Only if the d20 is precision, and only if it's not sold by Battleschool or SP.... ;) - at least if I understood all that rabble about dice....... :D
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
You can't draw at ASL.....it's impossible :)
I don't know - "Pybarrando"'s kids seem to draw ASL maps pretty good according to his avatar for GS. Dan Dolan's been drawing ASL for years, decades even - the drawn ASL map for GT-CG is way better than the published version(s).

I think one can draw ASL - one just has to have a little talent at drawing, first ;)
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,357
Reaction score
10,204
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
That said, I'd be interested in hearing what seasoned TDs have to say about permitting a draw result, and how this impacts the overall standings in a tournament.
If you use a Swiss style (I believe it is called that way) tournament, then draws are not an issue for the ranking. Dunno the details, but IIRC you get points not only for your wins but also for the wins of your opponents that have won other games as well (thus favoring winning against good players).

von Marwitz
 

bprobst

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
2,532
Reaction score
1,437
Location
Melbourne, Australia
First name
Bruce
Country
llAustralia
If you're determining your ranking by points, then draws are simple: 10 for a win, 5 for a draw, 0 for a loss. Extra points awarded for your opponents' wins, as vM notes.

If you're determining your ranking by simple win/loss results, then draws make things more difficult.

I have no real problem with permitting draw results, but I wouldn't encourage them.
 

JoeArthur

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Messages
1,108
Reaction score
1,067
Location
Broadstairs
Country
llUnited Kingdom
Thinking back to Spara's post above, what are the general thoughts on cash prizes. If there was a pot of money left over after expenses (ie. prizes) I was assuming we would probably pass it on to charity. But does a small cash prize make the tournament more competitive (nothing wrong in that), bring in factors which otherwise would not exist, etc. ?
Hey Martin,

My suggestion would be to give the cash left over to Pete to go towards the running costs of View From The Trenches.

I humbly disagree with your post about cheating. If you are going to cheat then the dice are the way to do it. If I go away from the table and someone changes the counters - I will spot it and call you out. If someone manipulates the dice before putting them in the dice tower - impossible to tell. The US readers might be able to comment on Dominic "The Dice Dominator" LoRiggio - a famous craps player. It's the same principle.

If I microwave my dice (or is that an urban myth - I'm not going to try it ?:rolleyes: ) - again impossible to tell unless you have a micrometer in your pocket:

https://www.wikihow.com/Load-Dice

Or you can just go out and buy some weighted dice :):

https://www.thediceshoponline.com/dice-sets/569/Loaded-and-Cheat-Dice

We have all had games where we have been diced off the board - so it is nice to know that it is the dice God's doing it to you and not for any other reason...........

And all this is why if someone wants to share dice, I happily agree and let's get on with the game.......................and if someone objects to sharing, I have a think and decide do I really want to play this person?

It would be good if your tourny rules covered this situation. If someone refuses to share dice - what should the tourny rules say? Are you going to make dice cups and dice towers mandatory?

And if you think that people don't cheat - well, history, and human nature, tells us otherwise:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/mar/31/steve-smith-david-warner-darren-lehmann-ball-tampering-australia
 
Top