Tournament Likes / Tournament Hates....

bprobst

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Schwerpunkt, I assume. And if so, it's a good rule, they're awful, even by non-precision standards.
Bollocks.

I've been using them in my ftf games for several years. They roll the same range of numbers as any other dice I've ever used.

At CanCon this year, I had a string of lucky DR early in the game. My opponent expressed doubts (in a semi-humorous fashion) about the fairness of my dice. Later in the game when the rolls weren't going so well, suddenly my dice were perfectly fair after all. And he was nowhere to be seen when in a later game I had a severe string of really, really awful DR. "Fairness" is in the eye of the beholder, and who's currently suffering.

Of course there are cheap, nasty shoddy dice out there, and they should be avoided. The SP dice don't fall into that category. They're just dice. Oh, and all those Precision Dice ... they're just dice too. It's nice that they've got a "name" behind them and all that, but they're still just dice. They won't make you play better.

As for dice-sharing ... bollocks to that, too. I carry plenty of spare dice with me when I go to a tournament. Forgot to bring your own? I'll happily loan you a pair. You want to roll my dice? You can choke and die.
 

STAVKA

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Sure you have, you cannot have it both ways, it is all there in writing, You have written "I intended to replace the number one dot and beyond with new material to replace it" and now in this thread it seems to not matter anymore if the new replacement material wear off.
Never said that.

Even if all of the foil were to wear a face (e.g. an ROF reminder on the deuce), it would not have a measurable impact on the balance of the die. The weight of the foil has virtually no bearing on the balance of the die. Adding or removing foil will not result in more or less "boxcars," or "snake-eyes."

Sorry to hear that you did not find our BattleDice tournament prizes to your liking.
Here is what you never said:

Moreover, I intended to push the boundaries by replacing the one-spot on each die with a design. The manufacturer had never done this before, but was curious to see how it would turn out. In the end, I decided to go with two “matching” pairs: black and white, dark-red and white. The design would be created using foil, hot-stamped onto the surface of the die.
 
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STAVKA

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I've been using BattleSchool dice for years and they are fantastic...
Steve
Fantastic but still not Precision Dice, not even by the manufacture own standards, or Backgammon tournament rules or Albany rules or is it?
 

nebel

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Well I sure stirred things up :)

Thanks for sharing the videos my summary:
1) Rolling characteristics have a LOT more to do with the squareness of the cube and the consistency of corners vs any mass-moment of inertia changes due to foil or pip holes on the middle of a face of the cube.
2) The rolling process and the landing material (cup / felt pad / matt) etc have as much (or more) impact on fairness than minor variations in surface geometry and mass.

The best part of the clip where he asserts that throwing the dice is the most fun part of the analysis...
 

BattleSchool

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You have written that the manufacturer (which name you cannot reveal?) have never done this type of work before , I would like to contact them and ask them a handful of questions , carv in dice and fill it with new material that disappear by wear and tear.
I'm going to be charitable and put this down to a language barrier. So one last time before this thread gets permanently derailed.

The firm that produces our dice had monogrammed thousands of dice before we contacted them. Casino dice often have monograms, as shown below. What they had not previously done was manufacture a die without pips on one or more faces. This is not surprising, as there is no demand for this from casinos or the backgammon hobby, the two main consumers of precision dice.

The monograms below are hot-stamped onto the surface of the die by hand using a silicon die (stamp) to imprint the foil design. No material is removed from the die itself, nor is the design engraved or etched into the surface of the die.

Because no hole is drilled on the ace of many of our BattleDice, there is even less chance that a tiny bubble of air will be trapped under the epoxy when the well for the pip is filled. It is always possible that air can become trapped behind a pip, or even inside the cellulose-acetate of the die itself. This is why casinos doublecheck their dice before using them on a game table. These checks are in addition to the quality-control measures carried out by the manufacturer.

To recap then, our custom precision dice (BattleDice/ColdCubes/BattleBones) begin life as standard, precision backgammon dice. The only difference is that when it comes to drilling the holes for the pips, the manufacturer does not drill a hole on the ace, for example. Given that the density of the epoxy is the same density as the celloluse acetate it replaces, there is no significant difference between a face with a pip, and one without. If there were a difference, then the dice below would be unbalanced by virtue of the fact that some faces have more pips, and therefore more epoxy, than others do.

I appreciate that you do not care for the look of our custom dice. Fair enough. But they are precision dice nonetheless. That said, if you do not trust our custom dice to be balanced, I recommend that you test all of your precision dice alongside them. You may be surprised by the results. Some of those precision dice you bought years ago may not be very "precise" now.

casino craps dice with monograms.jpg
 

STAVKA

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I'm going to be charitable and put this down to a language barrier. So one last time before this thread gets permanently derailed.

The firm that produces our dice had monogrammed thousands of dice before we contacted them. Casino dice often have monograms, as shown below. What they had not previously done was manufacture a die without pips on one or more faces. This is not surprising, as there is no demand for this from casinos or the backgammon hobby, the two main consumers of precision dice.

The monograms below are hot-stamped onto the surface of the die by hand using a silicon die (stamp) to imprint the foil design. No material is removed from the die itself, nor is the design engraved or etched into the surface of the die.

Because no hole is drilled on the ace of many of our BattleDice, there is even less chance that a tiny bubble of air will be trapped under the epoxy when the well for the pip is filled. It is always possible that air can become trapped behind a pip, or even inside the cellulose-acetate of the die itself. This is why casinos doublecheck their dice before using them on a game table. These checks are in addition to the quality-control measures carried out by the manufacturer.

To recap then, our custom precision dice (BattleDice/ColdCubes/BattleBones) begin life as standard, precision backgammon dice. The only difference is that when it comes to drilling the holes for the pips, the manufacturer does not drill a hole on the ace, for example. Given that the density of the epoxy is the same density as the celloluse acetate it replaces, there is no significant difference between a face with a pip, and one without. If there were a difference, then the dice below would be unbalanced by virtue of the fact that some faces have more pips, and therefore more epoxy, than others do.

I appreciate that you do not care for the look of our custom dice. Fair enough. But they are precision dice nonetheless. That said, if you do not trust our custom dice to be balanced, I recommend that you test all of your precision dice alongside them. You may be surprised by the results. Some of those precision dice you bought years ago may not be very "precise" now.
Not the same thing at all, the dice you display are meant to be thrown about 10 feet /2-3meters and a stamped monogram on these dice with razor edges who cares. You mish mash reality with stamps on throw dice with small ball cornered roll dice, with an intent to adverties your buissness ? As with your - this have be done before - argument, I am not buying it .

I think your reluctance to say which manufacture you use, is a poor decision, whats up?
 
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Ric of The LBC

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Not the same thing at all, the dice you display are meant to be thrown about 100 feet /2-3meters and a stamped monogram on these dice with razor edges who cares. You mish mash reality with stamps on throw dice with small ball cornered roll dice, with an intent to adverties your buissness ? As with your this have be done before argument, I am not buying it .

I think your reluctance to say which manufacture you use is a poor decision, whats up?
Are we still talking about a hobby game?
 

STAVKA

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von Marwitz

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Are the dice that MMP provides in Beyond Valor acceptable to use when playing ASL?
I don't know for Albany. But of course they should be.


I am convinced that all this talk about the precision is really a phantom debate.

First, who of all the people claiming that their standard-issue BV dice are bad have actually tested them?
Who of you who are now reading this has done it? Be honest with yourselves.
If you have not done it, then what are you talking about?

Second, and more importantly: What we are talking about is the impact of the difference of the results of precision dice compared to normal dice. Precision dice will be a bit more true than regular dice. But the difference of DR averages between the two is so marginal that its impact on the game is completely negligable compared to other factors such as the skill of play or what you roll in a specific situation (the proverbial boxcars for your vital 88 ATG).

See these interesting threads on how you can test your dice:
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-to-test-your-balanced-dice-are-they-fair.101532/



Ah, and a while ago, as this same old discussion came up again as is does a few times each and every year, I did the work to go a bit more into detail by pitting Perfect Dice (i.e. better than any Precision Dice can be) vs. just a pair of standard BV dice which came in the box some decades ago.

A quote from here below:
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/deck-dice-fair-dice.137761/page-2#post-1897811


So let me pose the question to you:

Have you ever made the test to establish what the difference of the bell curves are when comparing any (low production process) set of dice as found in any of MMP's boxed core modules and any set of your precision dice based on a sample of 1000 DRs? Or has anyone else?

I do not want to tease you or anyone else. I am honestly interested in establishing what extent of difference we are talking about. If we have some data available, then our arguments either way may gain or lose some weight.

To put facts behind my words, I did the work. I am not into math, so I leave it to the number-crunchers to figure out the results that can be pulled from the data:

Sample of 1000 DRs of BV3 dice rolled the way I usually do (no dice tower, dice cup on desk):


DR number of times my dice number of times expected with "perfect" die
2 24 27.77777777
3 46 55.55555555
4 79 83.33333333
5 107 111.111111111
6 138 138.888888888
7 159 166.666666666
8 141 138.888888888
9 125 111.111111111
10 80 83.3333333333
11 72 55.5555555555
12 23 27.7777777777

My DR average in 1000 rolls is 7099, the "perfect" expected DR average would be 7000.
I believe up to now, nobody considers whining about the dice or is convinced that the injustice of it all would warrant the mandatory requirement of precision dice.

From here on, please, math-gurus, correct me if I have screwed up somewhere. As abovementioned, I am not into math.

Emiprical variance for my dice would be:

24 * (2-7.099)² +
46 * (3-7.099)² +
49 * (4-7.099)² +
107 * (5-7.099)² +
138 * (6-7.099)² +
159 * (7-7.099)² +
141 * (8-7.099)² +
125 * (9-7.099)² +
80 * (10-7.099)² +
72 * (11-7.099)² +
23 * (12-7.099)² = 6199.82

6199.82 / 1000 (i.e. # of sample) = 6.19982 = Empirical variance for my dice @ a 1000 sample.

Now Empicial variance for "perfect" dice:

27.77 * (2-7)² +
55.55 * (3-7)² +
83.33 * (4-7)² +
111.11 * (5-7)² +
138.88 * (6-7)² +
166.66 * (7-7)² +
138.88 * (8-7)² +
111.11 * (9-7)² +
83.33 * (10-7)² +
55.55 * (11-7)² +
27.77 * (12-7)² = 5833.33

5833.33 / 1000 = 5,83333 = Empicical variance for "perfect" dice @ a 1000 sample.

Standard deviation would be the square root of Empirical variance.

√6.19982 = 2.48994 is the Standard deviation for my dice @ a 1000 sample.
√5.83333 = 2.41523 is the Standard deviation for "perfect" dice @ a 1000 sample.

If I understand it correctly, this would mean that with my dice @ a 1000 sample, I can expect to roll

7099 +/- 2.48994% or in other words between 6998.26 and 7147.27.

"Perfect" dice @ a 1000 sample could expect to roll

7000 +/- 2.41523% or in other words between 6915.47 and 7084.53.

Well, so with my low production process dice my sample is exceeding the Standard Deviation of "perfect" dice by 14.5 pips in 1000 DRs (factual 7099 as opposed to 7084.53 what is within Standard Deviation for "perfect dice"). What a scandal. I am devastated.

Now granted, worst that could conceivably be expected to happen to me within the range of the Standard deviation of "perfect" dice pitted against my low production process BV3 ones could be a

DR average of 6.916 against 7.147 in 1000 DRs to my disfavor.

I am crushed. Oh, the injustice of it. It must have turned the game against me. Seriously? I better not even comtemplate that at the same time within expectations it could have optimally turned out to be a

DR average of 6.998 against 7.085 in 1000 DRs to my favor.


At this point, I find it very hard to understand people insisting upon precision dice making a significant difference.

Have I just been lucky with the set of low production process dice of BV3?

Not impossible, but rather unlikely I would think. Everybody, please feel invited to provide your 1000 DR sample to broaden the database. And note that I have pitched my dice against "perfect" dice. Not against precision dice which will fall off against "perfect" dice somewhat.

So as a bottom line based on the above, I conclude that precision dice do not matter for the purposes of ASL. What they might matter for is to soothe superstition, the promise of more "security" and so on. They obviously calm the psyche of some. I perfectly fine with people who see the need to use precision dice for whatever reason.

But I cannot follow people that try to tell me using precision dice or not has in itself any significant impact on the game and therefore their use should be made mandatory for tournaments etc. Even less I can accept people that allege dishonest motives if people do not use or decline their use.

DR average of 6.916 against 7.147 in 1000 DRs to my disfavor.
DR average of 6.998 against 7.085 in 1000 DRs to my favor.

I am convinced that the above differences are not what usually decides tournaments.
It's the differences of the skill levels of players that do which deviate at a greater extent as to allow for a significant impact of the above DR average differences.
And it's when you roll crap or superb that matters.


Cheers,
von Marwitz
 

Martin Mayers

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There will be no rules on dice at this tournament. I don't think this has ever featured on the UK scene. If I was feeling particularly evil I'd insist the the dice from the original game are used (most still have them, nerds that we are) as the rules seem to explicitly suggest that they are the dice that should be used. But no, none of that, use whatever dice you like. I prefer four sided dice in my games.

And on the issue of food, the tournament venue is already sorted, the wonderful Headlands Hotel in Blackpool which is run, slightly ironically by a German chap called Charles Ruppert who runs the finest bed and breakfast in the land in my experience with the most wonderful food menu,

The only thought I've had is whether, unlike other tourneys, that we take this around the country year on year to different towns and cities. A sort of 'British Open'. But, the venue is so good, and ticks so many boxes, that I think this unlikely.
 

Martin Mayers

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Are the dice that MMP provides in Beyond Valor acceptable to use when playing ASL? Perhaps they should be the only dice allowed.
I haven't read the rule for a while but don't the rules actually imply that these ARE the dice that should be used :)
 

Martin Mayers

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I'm going to be charitable and put this down to a language barrier. So one last time before this thread gets permanently derailed.

The firm that produces our dice had monogrammed thousands of dice before we contacted them. Casino dice often have monograms, as shown below. What they had not previously done was manufacture a die without pips on one or more faces. This is not surprising, as there is no demand for this from casinos or the backgammon hobby, the two main consumers of precision dice.

The monograms below are hot-stamped onto the surface of the die by hand using a silicon die (stamp) to imprint the foil design. No material is removed from the die itself, nor is the design engraved or etched into the surface of the die.

Because no hole is drilled on the ace of many of our BattleDice, there is even less chance that a tiny bubble of air will be trapped under the epoxy when the well for the pip is filled. It is always possible that air can become trapped behind a pip, or even inside the cellulose-acetate of the die itself. This is why casinos doublecheck their dice before using them on a game table. These checks are in addition to the quality-control measures carried out by the manufacturer.

To recap then, our custom precision dice (BattleDice/ColdCubes/BattleBones) begin life as standard, precision backgammon dice. The only difference is that when it comes to drilling the holes for the pips, the manufacturer does not drill a hole on the ace, for example. Given that the density of the epoxy is the same density as the celloluse acetate it replaces, there is no significant difference between a face with a pip, and one without. If there were a difference, then the dice below would be unbalanced by virtue of the fact that some faces have more pips, and therefore more epoxy, than others do.

I appreciate that you do not care for the look of our custom dice. Fair enough. But they are precision dice nonetheless. That said, if you do not trust our custom dice to be balanced, I recommend that you test all of your precision dice alongside them. You may be surprised by the results. Some of those precision dice you bought years ago may not be very "precise" now.

View attachment 4265

Do you have any spare sets hanging around which you'd fancy providing as small tournament prizes/hand outs? I feel cheeky asking, but then, I am cheeky :)
 

von Marwitz

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I haven't read the rule for a while but don't the rules actually imply that these ARE the dice that should be used :)
"A.1 DICE: The rules often require use of a colored die to differentiate it from the other die in use. A set of four dice of different colors is included in ASL Module 1:BEYOND VALOR. A white die and one of the colored dice are rolled simultaneously and summed normally for most purposes, but occasionally the colored dr will take on added significance either by itself or in comparison to the white dr. Players may also find it beneficial to get in the habit of rolling three dice, and using the third colored die as an automatic "subsequent dr" for any situation requiring one (such as 5.132, 7.309, 9.74, 11.13, 11.501, 24.1). The term "dr" refers to die roll while the term "DR" in all CAPITAL letters refers to Dice Roll. The term Original DR/dr refers to one before the addition of modifiers; Final DR/dr refers to a DR/dr after the addition of all modifiers."

There is a reference to the specific dice included in BV. Careful reading reveals that this rules merely says that a (unspecific) white die and one of the (specific) colored dice are rolled. So it "implies" ( :nod: ;) ) that only the colored dice of BV are to be used but that you can use any white die you want. Including SP dice (whether it means Schwerpunkt or Semi-Precision...).

I have not seen a Perry Sez on the matter to the contrary. :D

So you can go ahead and call out anyone for illegal dice usage if he uses non-BV colored dice. :hellyes:


von Marwitz
 
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Tooz

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Getting back to the original theme of this thread I would offer the option of open gaming at tournaments. Not everyone who plays ASL "competes". I for one just love the opportunity to escape real life and push cardboard and roll dice. ASLOK has that option which is why that is one tournament I try not to ever miss.
I am going to the ASL Open in a few weeks. This is a very well run tourney but does not have the open gaming option. For me, a three-to four day tourney/gathering is the best time to play out those true monster scenarios or even a campaign. I would rather play three "bucket list" scenarios/HASLs than six tourney sized scenarios. I just don't like having to rush at the end of a six turn scenario.
Regardless, playing ASL for a few days with old and new friends is always a highlight of the year. Sure to be great fun.
 

von Marwitz

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Good point by Tooz.

At Grenadier, there is the option for open gaming. Some play monster scenarios, a short campaign or stuff like that. Some do playtest or simply play friendly scenarios. There used to be moderated team double-blinds long years ago (awesome fun).

Furthermore, this option makes access easier for new players that are just beginning to get into ASL and for whom a real tournament would not yet be enjoyable for lack of rules knowledge or too slow a pace of play. We had a couple of guys playing SK or easy ASL scenarios with some ASLers who find the full tournament a bit too stressful and were acting as teachers. Some of these newcomers have meanwhile developed and turned into regular participants of the main tournament.

Open gaming also adds an opportunity for people to take part in the event that for time restraints cannot attend the entire week-end (and thus are not able to participate in the main tournament). Better a day of ASL or one and a half than nothing.

So in general, experience with open gaming at Grenadier is good. That said, the TD keeps watch that the main tournament remains the main event. In other words, there is some open gaming but most attendants will participate in the main tournament.

von Marwitz
 
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