Tournament Likes / Tournament Hates....

[witchbottles]

Yeah - apologies for adding to it Martin. It is just that there are rules for everything else in this game.................and people are asking to share dice at tournys which suggests something is up.

So I did some research. I am now going to play by the backgammon tournament rules for dice contained here (under section three preparation). The reason for choosing backgammon is that it is a dice based game and they have had years to come up with a method that is fair to the players and beyond reproach:

http://ukbgf.com/wp-content/uploads/UKBGF_Rules_Edition1.3.pdf

Which means:

Four dice are selected at the start of the game (they do not have to be precision - however if precision dice are available they have to be used). Two from me, two from my opponent. You put them in a cup and shake them up and roll them - then each player then takes turns selecting the two dice that he is to use. This presumably gives the players the opportunity to pick the dice that have rolled the lowest (if you are nice I'll pick my two and you can pick your two).

The two dice selected by this method are used by each player for the duration of the game. However at the end of each player turn the player has the option of asking that the four dice be put in the cup again and rolled. Players select dice again with the player who asked for the change picking first (presumably he asks to do this because he's getting fed up with his dice rolls - been there ). The player who asks for this to be done gets to pick first.

We use dice cups and use dice towers. Lipped cups can be requested by either player (cup has a lip so that the dice are forced to rotate on exit from the cup) - but bring your own if you want to use these - those things are much more expensive that the normal dice cups and I'm not bothered about using lipped cups.

Interestingly in backgammon the dice are rolled on the board (but the dice cup is not allowed to touch that board) but a dice tower (baffle box) can be requested by either player and used if both agree or it is part of the tournament rules to use a dice tower , or imposed on a player by the tournament director (looks like they've had a few issues - the other option to having the dice tower imposed is that they have someone stand over the game to observe it - a "match monitor" - ouch). So for me it is going to be dice cups and dice towers but if you have an area for rolling dice and want to use it - fine by me, but you have to use the dice cups.

So - no sharing dice, because as someone pointed out to me it is a bit of a pain to remember ROF etc. This way you have your own dice.

So - please do not ask to share dice with me - for the above method is now literally going to be the way that I roll.

You'll be happy to know that I will not be requesting you as a match monitor Martin (bet that person is popular at a backgammon tourny) nor asking you to adjudicate over which method of rolling dice to use - but you might have to find me an alternative opponent given some of the strong feeling expressed on this thread............................

Looking forward to your tourny.

I'm actually looking forward to a "doubling die" in ASL..... that should be an interesting tourney rule.

 

[witchbottles]

I just told my wife about the portion of this thread about sharing dice. I reiterated my "Ick" comment from above and then said "ewe, sharing dice is like sharing your wife."

That went over like a fart in church and she said "It's nice to know how highly you think of me." Welp, looks like fried baloney again for dinner.

Silent but Deadly, the old SBD technique. That way you can always blame it on that feller in the pew in front of you.... speaking of which, is this actually how they got the name "pew" ?

 

[Blackcloud6]

Silent but Deadly, the old SBD technique. That way you can always blame it on that feller in the pew in front of you.... speaking of which, is this actually how they got the name "pew" ?

Hmmm... have to check the rubrics.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I just told my wife about the portion of this thread about sharing dice. I reiterated my "Ick" comment from above and then said "ewe, sharing dice is like sharing your wife."

That went over like a fart in church and she said "It's nice to know how highly you think of me." Welp, looks like fried baloney again for dinner.

Or how highly you think of your dice

 

[Blackcloud6]

Or how highly you think of your dice

Thanks for sticking up for me, but she has seen me take the dice outside, line them up in formation, pull one out at random, put it in front of the formation and then hit it with a hammer. "Pour encourager les autres" you know.

 

[von Marwitz]

Thanks for sticking up for me, but she has seen me take the dice outside, line them up in formation, pull one out at random, put it in front of the formation and then hit it with a hammer. "Pour encourager les autres" you know.

Haha, that was you. I have heard that story related by someone here in Europe...

von Marwitz

 

[JoeArthur]

I'm actually looking forward to a "doubling die" in ASL..... that should be an interesting tourney rule.

ASL themed dice cups are more likely to happen.................

 

[JoeArthur]

Thanks for sticking up for me, but she has seen me take the dice outside, line them up in formation, pull one out at random, put it in front of the formation and then hit it with a hammer. "Pour encourager les autres" you know.

ASL is not the only game that has these issues - it is possible to buy "non-crushable dice cups"

http://www.geoffreyparker.com/backgammon-dice-cups

We're all the same............

 

[BigAl737]

Thanks for sticking up for me, but she has seen me take the dice outside, line them up in formation, pull one out at random, put it in front of the formation and then hit it with a hammer. "Pour encourager les autres" you know.

I guess you could say you randomly selected a random selector.

 

[Martin Mayers]

Yeah - apologies for adding to it Martin. It is just that there are rules for everything else in this game.................and people are asking to share dice at tournys which suggests something is up.

So I did some research. I am now going to play by the backgammon tournament rules for dice contained here (under section three preparation). The reason for choosing backgammon is that it is a dice based game and they have had years to come up with a method that is fair to the players and beyond reproach:

http://ukbgf.com/wp-content/uploads/UKBGF_Rules_Edition1.3.pdf

Which means:

Four dice are selected at the start of the game (they do not have to be precision - however if precision dice are available they have to be used). Two from me, two from my opponent. You put them in a cup and shake them up and roll them - then each player then takes turns selecting the two dice that he is to use. This presumably gives the players the opportunity to pick the dice that have rolled the lowest (if you are nice I'll pick my two and you can pick your two).

The two dice selected by this method are used by each player for the duration of the game. However at the end of each player turn the player has the option of asking that the four dice be put in the cup again and rolled. Players select dice again with the player who asked for the change picking first (presumably he asks to do this because he's getting fed up with his dice rolls - been there ). The player who asks for this to be done gets to pick first.

We use dice cups and use dice towers. Lipped cups can be requested by either player (cup has a lip so that the dice are forced to rotate on exit from the cup) - but bring your own if you want to use these - those things are much more expensive that the normal dice cups and I'm not bothered about using lipped cups.

Interestingly in backgammon the dice are rolled on the board (but the dice cup is not allowed to touch that board) but a dice tower (baffle box) can be requested by either player and used if both agree or it is part of the tournament rules to use a dice tower , or imposed on a player by the tournament director (looks like they've had a few issues - the other option to having the dice tower imposed is that they have someone stand over the game to observe it - a "match monitor" - ouch). So for me it is going to be dice cups and dice towers but if you have an area for rolling dice and want to use it - fine by me, but you have to use the dice cups.

So - no sharing dice, because as someone pointed out to me it is a bit of a pain to remember ROF etc. This way you have your own dice.

So - please do not ask to share dice with me - for the above method is now literally going to be the way that I roll.

You'll be happy to know that I will not be requesting you as a match monitor Martin (bet that person is popular at a backgammon tourny) nor asking you to adjudicate over which method of rolling dice to use - but you might have to find me an alternative opponent given some of the strong feeling expressed on this thread............................

Looking forward to your tourny.

I'm looking forward to it to. I think. Perhaps. Maybe. I hope.

I've a question. If you do the above, and your opponent decides to say "bollocks to that". How should that be dealt with?

 

[jrv]

I'm looking forward to it to. I think. Perhaps. Maybe. I hope.

I've a question. If you do the above, and your opponent decides to say "bollocks to that". How should that be dealt with?

The way you always deal with bollocks: a cattle prod.

JR

 

[JoeArthur]

I'm looking forward to it to. I think. Perhaps. Maybe. I hope.

I've a question. If you do the above, and your opponent decides to say "bollocks to that". How should that be dealt with?

I must admit - I did wonder that myself...................

However surely it is fair and reasonable to request that system? It is after all a tourny? What currently happens in a tourny if someone wants to share dice and they "bollocks to that"?

Currently this thread is full of "you are accusing me of being a cheat". I have a question - how do you know that I am honest? Surely playing by this method is the best solution for both players?

 

[Martin Mayers]

I must admit - I did wonder that myself...................

However surely it is fair and reasonable to request that system? It is after all a tourny? What currently happens in a tourny if someone wants to share dice and they "bollocks to that"?

Currently this thread is full of "you are accusing me of being a cheat". I have a question - how do you know that I am honest? Surely playing by this method is the best solution for both players?

At the moment there's no real tradition of sharing dice in the UK. For a number of perfectly practical reasons. ASL is very different to Backgammon (even the process of dice rolling and what the dice mean/how they effect things is 1000% more complex than Backy)

As a friend, and between you, me, and the internet, you once asked to share dice with me, I agreed, and you commenced in driving me absolutely fucking mad (not literally but I was beginning to hop a bit) over the space of the next three/four hours. Do you know why? I suspect you don't realise you were doing what you actually were doing?

But. The critical thing. You know it. I know it. If I set out this rule in the tournament guidelines, people would refuse to play in the tournament. I'd rather people just "got on with it" as they've done for 25 years of UK ASL tournaments.

All that said....if there was an utterly overwhelming response in favour of what you're suggesting here, then I'd consider it. But a) there won't be, and b) there won't be.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I have a question - how do you know that I am honest?

You are presumed to be.
I don't question the honesty of my opponents.
I play on grounds of honour and of trust.
Not of suspicion.
I don't need any means to guarantee that my opponent is not cheating - and, anyway, I am quite sure that there a multiple ways to get around rules which are meant to prevent cheating.
Now, you may reply that I can be easily tricked as I play on the basis that my opponent doesn't cheat.
Absolutely!
That is where trust and honour kick in - and where creating "security" rules simply destroys the beauty of playing for the sake of fun, of socializing, of not being too serious about what only is a game.
But I never played with a cheater, after what I have noticed.
Have you?

 

[JoeArthur]

At the moment there's no real tradition of sharing dice in the UK. For a number of perfectly practical reasons.

As a friend, and between you, me, and the internet, you once asked to share dice with me, I agreed, and you commenced in driving me absolutely fucking mad over the space of the next three/four hours. Do you know why? I suspect you don't realise you were doing what you actually were doing ?

But. The critical thing. You know it. I know it. If I set out this rule in the tournament guidelines, people would refuse to play in the tournament. I'd rather people just "got on with it" as they've done for 25 years of UK ASL tournaments.

All that said....if there was an utterly overwhelming response in favour of what you're suggesting here, then I'd consider it. But a) there won't be, and b) there won't be.

Ouch

Yeah, I do remember the first time we played at Double One I drove you nuts by asking the tourny director rules questions rather than trusting what you said. It was my first time back after a long absence and I had yet to get back into the groove. You were very patient and I thank you for that. That's gone (I think - I hope). When we played a second time a year or two later all was OK no? Apart from me using the gamey tactic of setting up the pillbox round the wrong way round so that your small arms fire had no effect

If I was driving you nuts in some other way please do not bite your toungue - tell me. I promise not to cry I would point out it's best to tell me whilst I'm doing it so that I can stop doing it for you - it's a bit late now

Blame Craig for me starting to ask to share dice.

You need to add to my sins I was playing Derek at Intensive Fire (he would not share dice) and he started rolling three's and four's right off the bat so I grabbed his dice and gave him mine and proceeded to use his (and win the game). Now that was wrong of me and if he is reading this I apologise for that as well.

However I have been on the receiving end of people changing dice on me mid game, using small dice in little jars and well...........................it goes on.

The dice drive us all nuts - witness the bloke who took a hammer to his dice. The backgammon cups that are non-crushable.

I was hoping to solve all these issues and settle down and enjoy the game. If someone now asks me to share dice I can say no guilt free - because I now have a better method. Those rules are as much for me as anyone else - I could not have grabbed Derek's dice but I could have asked to select from the four dice at the end of the turn. Unfortunately I suspect that you are right - introducing a standard system is not going to happen. Which is a shame - I think that the game would benefit from it.

I would like to use that system please (I think that even Craig would be happy). I was not asking you to enforce it on people - it was more along the lines of what do think - well I've found that out What happens if someone says no and one of us walks? It was more a case of being prepared..........I am not going to be walking up to you demanding anything.

The life of a tournament director is tough and it is not my intention to make it tougher - I was hoping to make it easier................

I did say earlier that I was not going to add to your thread - so that's it for me. You must be getting fed up with dice, dice, dice.

I really do hope that things go well and that you enjoy the experience. It's a lot of work and I hope you and Simon get a pint out of it If I make it to Blackpool it will be my pleasure to buy you both that pint if no-one else does....................

 

[Martin Mayers]

Ouch

Yeah, I do remember the first time we played at Double One I drove you nuts by asking the tourny director rules questions rather than trusting what you said. It was my first time back after a long absence and I had yet to get back into the groove. You were very patient and I thank you for that. That's gone (I think - I hope). When we played a second time a year or two later all was OK no? Apart from me using the gamey tactic of setting up the pillbox round the wrong way round so that your small arms fire had no effect

If I was driving you nuts in some other way please do not bite your toungue - tell me. I promise not to cry I would point out it's best to tell me whilst I'm doing it so that I can stop doing it for you - it's a bit late now

Blame Craig for me starting to ask to share dice.

You need to add to my sins I was playing Derek at Intensive Fire (he would not share dice) and he started rolling three's and four's right off the bat so I grabbed his dice and gave him mine and proceeded to use his (and win the game). Now that was wrong of me and if he is reading this I apologise for that as well.

However I have been on the receiving end of people changing dice on me mid game, using small dice in little jars and well...........................it goes on.

The dice drive us all nuts - witness the bloke who took a hammer to his dice. The backgammon cups that are non-crushable.

I was hoping to solve all these issues and settle down and enjoy the game. If someone now asks me to share dice I can say no guilt free - because I now have a better method. Those rules are as much for me as anyone else - I could not have grabbed Derek's dice but I could have asked to select from the four dice at the end of the turn. Unfortunately I suspect that you are right - introducing a standard system is not going to happen. Which is a shame - I think that the game would benefit from it.

I would like to use that system please (I think that even Craig would be happy). I was not asking you to enforce it on people - it was more along the lines of what do think - well I've found that out What happens if someone says no and one of us walks? It was more a case of being prepared..........I am not going to be walking up to you demanding anything.

The life of a tournament director is tough and it is not my intention to make it tougher - I was hoping to make it easier................

I did say earlier that I was not going to add to your thread - so that's it for me. You must be getting fed up with dice, dice, dice.

I really do hope that things go well and that you enjoy the experience. It's a lot of work and I hope you and Simon get a pint out of it If I make it to Blackpool it will be my pleasure to buy you both that pint if no-one else does....................

Christ mate I didn't mind you asking questions. No. I'm talking specifically dice sharing.

You kept picking the dice up and holding onto them. And I kept having to ask for me dice back so I could roll them. And you kept saying "whoops sorry". It's actually quite funny looking back. But I only cite it as one of a lot of examples of what can happen when ya start sharing dice in a game where it doesn't tend to happen.

In terms of the backgammon rule. If both of you agree to it you can do whatever you want. But separate dice and separate dice towers do work very well in ASL I think. The idea of rolling your dice and just leaving them there until your next roll, so that results can be verified anon until the next dice roll and all that. And the fact that I know exactly where to reach and find my dice for the next roll.....other than when you've got them in your sweaty hands

 

[von Marwitz]

However surely it is fair and reasonable to request that system? It is after all a tourny? What currently happens in a tourny if someone wants to share dice and they "bollocks to that"?

Usually nothing, I suppose. Since you can't force anyone to share dice, then it probably won't happen if someone does not want to do it. What can happen is that at least one person involved will think that the other one is a bummer - even if they agree to the request in which they don't see any sense.

Currently this thread is full of "you are accusing me of being a cheat". I have a question - how do you know that I am honest? Surely playing by this method is the best solution for both players?

I don't know if you [unspecific 'you' here and in the following] are honest.

But the good thing is: I don't give a damn to find out.

Chances are that you are honest. If you are not, then I *might* lose one game. I have no problems with losing a game of ASL, otherwise I would be in dire straits as I lose not much less than I win. If I don't know that I lose a game to cheating, it will feel just like I lost a game or maybe that I had bad luck with dice. Again, you are in dire straits playing ASL if you can't cope with bad luck at dice. If you are stupid enough to use such blunt methods of cheating that I notice (those wooden Koplov dice might do, albeit they will roll boxcars all the time, which is just fantastic in ASL...), well then I guess I will have to ask you if it weren't a good idea to concede.

von Marwitz

 

[Sparafucil3]

I guess you could say you randomly selected a random selector.

But is he himself, a precision selector? Me thinks not. -- jim

 

[Eagle4ty]

But is he himself, a precision selector? Me thinks not. -- jim

Precisely!:nod:

 

[Paul S NJ]

Sometimes I ask my opponent to change dice. Not because I think he is cheating, but just to improve my own morale after a nasty ROF streak.

I have seen a person who likes to share several sets of dice. Putting each roll on the table for a history (for rate, hit location) before the next roll is made. Not my preference, but I went along.

The elephant in the room though is Carl’s opaque ‘sugar bowl of death’. I hate waiting the extra 2 seconds after every roll for the “ hit, rate” announcement. The tension is debilitating. “Ban the bowl !”