Too Good To Wave?

Tuomo

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Later in the war, did Russian Guards units (the kind that start getting represented by 458s, with more leaders, etc) start abandoning the Human Wave as wasteful of their talents?
 

Jazz

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Later in the war, did Russian Guards units (the kind that start getting represented by 458s, with more leaders, etc) start abandoning the Human Wave as wasteful of their talents?
...and your point?
 

von Marwitz

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Later in the war, did Russian Guards units (the kind that start getting represented by 458s, with more leaders, etc) start abandoning the Human Wave as wasteful of their talents?
As far as I know, later in the war the Russians were using human waves generally not as often any more as they did earlier. By late 1942 and 1943 their learning curve on things tactical, operational, and strategical has improved significantly the 'hard way'.

von Marwitz
 

Jazz

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As far as I know, later in the war the Russians were using human waves generally not as often any more as they did earlier. By late 1942 and 1943 their learning curve on things tactical, operational, and strategical has improved significantly the 'hard way'.

von Marwitz
Isn't learning those lessons and operating in that fashion kind of what the human player is supposed to do?

Reminds me of Oberst Balack who used to complain here that Germans in ASL were not the supermen that they seemed to be in history....when in reality it was the competence at the level represented by the player that made it such an effective force.
 
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von Marwitz

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Isn't learning those lessons and operating in that fashion kind of what the human player is supposed to do?
In game terms, 'the hard way' you'll remember your mistakes best.

Historically, maybe the likes of Stalin did not necessarily always care to learn lessons fast, as it was not them personally that were to bear the immediate consequences. Political doctrine might have been considered more important than the waste of thousands of others' lives.

Thankfully, political doctrine does not play a role in how to play an ASL OoB...

von Marwitz
 

Eagle4ty

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The use of massed attacks, (i.e. Human Wave) was utilized by the Soviet Army throughout the war regardless of unit designation (e.g. Guards, Standard Rifle Infantry or militia/conscripted Rifle units) and persisted in the Soviet Army doctrine post war well into the 1970's if not beyond. Where time was of the essence and the objective importance high or troop quality was low the Soviets were not averse to employing massed attacks to achieve objectives. Where the difference was most notable however was in the support given to these attacks, especially late war, and the considered approach to their use as an effective attack doctrine (i.e. when & where to use it).

Early in the war, and in some instances much later, Soviet commanders would launch these attacks poorly supported or in an uninspired manner paying little attention to the situational environment. Usually in late war and those attacks conducted by more experienced units/commanders, the massed attacks would follow on a massive pre-attack artillery and air bombardment meant to disjoint and suppress the enemy and may have been augmented with massed direct armor support as well. One need only to read a few accounts of engagements of fighting along the Vistula & Oder or actions in the Baltics to be presented with more than one account of Soviet massed attacks being utilized for one reason or another and with varring degrees of success.

The real question here is what is the players perception of a HW attack? Is it lines of troops linked arms or shoulder to shoulder running at the enemy or a more dispersed formation rapidly advancing in unison toward an objective? There is certainly enough reports of the former being used early in the war to be creditable and certainly enough reports of the later being used during the late war period to be creditable.
 

Michael Dorosh

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The real question here is what is the players perception of a HW attack? Is it lines of troops linked arms or shoulder to shoulder running at the enemy or a more dispersed formation rapidly advancing in unison toward an objective? There is certainly enough reports of the former being used early in the war to be creditable and certainly enough reports of the later being used during the late war period to be creditable.
Excellent post as usual, and I'll zero in on this. Canadian attacks in Normandy and later could be described as "human waves" if an even looser interpretation of the phrase is adopted. The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada sent 325 men up the ridge on July 25, 1944 during Operation SPRING and I think 15 unwounded survivors came back down. Their tank support never materialized and the attack wasn't coordinated with artillery. I believe also the Germans were on a reverse slope. The battalion was wiped out again in the Scheldt fighting on 13 October 1944 when all four companies attacked over open ground toward a railway embankment held by German paratroopers.

While not fitting your technical definition, I wonder if German observers wouldn't have called them "human waves." One of the Germans at Verrieres was quoted in a television documentary as saying the Canadians had advance on him "as if on a parade ground" which I took to mean walking upright with weapons at port arms.
 

Actionjick

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WAVES should be reserved for sailors. 🙄

Seriously though I think the point of the player's perception of what a HW actually consists of is a good point. What may be a probe in force for the Soviets could be a HW for the Americans.
 

Tuomo

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I don't see how player perception matters, but I must be missing the point, sorry. My guess is that later war 458s don't need the benefits of the HW rules to accomplish things like early war 426s do. But nothing except good scenario design keeps the 458s from electing it; the rules don't phase it out as the war went on.

Much like early war units can do some a historical late war things because it makes for a better game (ie, we don't enforce Early War Soviet Tactics all the time), I guess the early war stuff stays on the back shelf, ready to be dusted off in the late war if necessary.

I'm setting up a German defense in Possl's Posse; it's July 1944 and they're facing a bunch of 458s, and yet I'm having to think about those guys doing a HW when historically I imagine those more capable 458s probably had better ways. Shrug.
 

von Marwitz

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I would say a good rule of thumb should be anybody ordering a human wave should lead it.
It would make for a memorable moment seeing Tuomo stomping forward on whatever boards are in use on the playing-table towards his opponent leading the HW ordered by him. If pulled off at ASLOK, it would likely create a murmur whenever he entered a room with ASLers years after the event... ;)

von Marwitz
 

Actionjick

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I don't see how player perception matters, but I must be missing the point, sorry. My guess is that later war 458s don't need the benefits of the HW rules to accomplish things like early war 426s do. But nothing except good scenario design keeps the 458s from electing it; the rules don't phase it out as the war went on.

Much like early war units can do some a historical late war things because it makes for a better game (ie, we don't enforce Early War Soviet Tactics all the time), I guess the early war stuff stays on the back shelf, ready to be dusted off in the late war if necessary.

I'm setting up a German defense in Possl's Posse; it's July 1944 and they're facing a bunch of 458s, and yet I'm having to think about those guys doing a HW when historically I imagine those more capable 458s probably had better ways. Shrug.
I didn't express myself well. In game terms player perception of HW doesn't matter at all. I was thinking more of real world situations.

As to whether or not HW should be allowed in scenarios set later in the war I really haven't given it serious consideration. Once again it seems to be a matter of how one views ASL, either as an historical simulation or a game based on history.
 

Old Noob

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When in doubt, use a sledgehammer. {Just make sure you know when to swing at the target!}
Otherwise use a fine edged knife.
 

The Purist

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Well,... to be honest the true 'human wave' as represented in the game was not actually used all that often (despite what early post-war narratives state). The 'linked arms' suicidal charge is a bit of post-war anti-Soviet propaganda put forward by such authors as Manstein, von Mellenthin, von Luck and others. The 'myth' of the endless mass of human waves were often a means to excuse the defeat of the Wehrmacht.

That said, as noted above, the Red Army did use massed attacks, usually when time was short, experienced troops/officers were lacking or the situation was desperate. Often an attack that simply failed with heavy losses were called 'human waves' or massed attacks. Take for example the Red Army counterattacks north of Stalingrad in late August and early Sept, 1942. Infantry battalions would leap out of their entrenchments to follow up on an artillery barrage (usually too short in duration or lacking in weight) across wide open terrain without so much as a shrub to hide behind. Not surprisingly, German machine guns, mortars and artillery would tear them up with bodies often falling close together. In 'histories' such as William Craig's "Enemy at the Gates" these would be recorded as 'human wave attacks".

By 1944, Red Army tactics (and experience) had progressed far enough that they should probably be allowed to deploy. Though as a mass of men might charge forward in two or three waves behind a creeping barrage to cover open ground, these were not human waves.
 
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