Tuomo
Keeper of the Funk
Later in the war, did Russian Guards units (the kind that start getting represented by 458s, with more leaders, etc) start abandoning the Human Wave as wasteful of their talents?
...and your point?Later in the war, did Russian Guards units (the kind that start getting represented by 458s, with more leaders, etc) start abandoning the Human Wave as wasteful of their talents?
As far as I know, later in the war the Russians were using human waves generally not as often any more as they did earlier. By late 1942 and 1943 their learning curve on things tactical, operational, and strategical has improved significantly the 'hard way'.Later in the war, did Russian Guards units (the kind that start getting represented by 458s, with more leaders, etc) start abandoning the Human Wave as wasteful of their talents?
Isn't learning those lessons and operating in that fashion kind of what the human player is supposed to do?As far as I know, later in the war the Russians were using human waves generally not as often any more as they did earlier. By late 1942 and 1943 their learning curve on things tactical, operational, and strategical has improved significantly the 'hard way'.
von Marwitz
In game terms, 'the hard way' you'll remember your mistakes best.Isn't learning those lessons and operating in that fashion kind of what the human player is supposed to do?
Excellent post as usual, and I'll zero in on this. Canadian attacks in Normandy and later could be described as "human waves" if an even looser interpretation of the phrase is adopted. The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada sent 325 men up the ridge on July 25, 1944 during Operation SPRING and I think 15 unwounded survivors came back down. Their tank support never materialized and the attack wasn't coordinated with artillery. I believe also the Germans were on a reverse slope. The battalion was wiped out again in the Scheldt fighting on 13 October 1944 when all four companies attacked over open ground toward a railway embankment held by German paratroopers.The real question here is what is the players perception of a HW attack? Is it lines of troops linked arms or shoulder to shoulder running at the enemy or a more dispersed formation rapidly advancing in unison toward an objective? There is certainly enough reports of the former being used early in the war to be creditable and certainly enough reports of the later being used during the late war period to be creditable.
It would make for a memorable moment seeing Tuomo stomping forward on whatever boards are in use on the playing-table towards his opponent leading the HW ordered by him. If pulled off at ASLOK, it would likely create a murmur whenever he entered a room with ASLers years after the event...I would say a good rule of thumb should be anybody ordering a human wave should lead it.
I didn't express myself well. In game terms player perception of HW doesn't matter at all. I was thinking more of real world situations.I don't see how player perception matters, but I must be missing the point, sorry. My guess is that later war 458s don't need the benefits of the HW rules to accomplish things like early war 426s do. But nothing except good scenario design keeps the 458s from electing it; the rules don't phase it out as the war went on.
Much like early war units can do some a historical late war things because it makes for a better game (ie, we don't enforce Early War Soviet Tactics all the time), I guess the early war stuff stays on the back shelf, ready to be dusted off in the late war if necessary.
I'm setting up a German defense in Possl's Posse; it's July 1944 and they're facing a bunch of 458s, and yet I'm having to think about those guys doing a HW when historically I imagine those more capable 458s probably had better ways. Shrug.