Today in ASL I ... (Day to day ASL doings)

Honza

The Art Of Wargames
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
13,004
Reaction score
1,617
Location
Oxfordshire
First name
Jan
Country
llCzechia
Hello The Purist,

It is very difficult the assess the success of air to ground rockets 'after' the war. I know that studies suggest only a 4% success rate; but that is after the event and derived from paperwork and stats. I read a report by a German tank commander who said that all seven of the tanks under his command were destroyed by rockets. The truth is that many German AFV were eliminated in Normandy by means other than tank vs tank warfare. The likely hood is that aircraft played a significant role which has been played down by historians and analysts.
 

Honza

The Art Of Wargames
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
13,004
Reaction score
1,617
Location
Oxfordshire
First name
Jan
Country
llCzechia
Have a read of this quote from wiki...

However, after-action studies at the time were based on random sampling of wrecks rather than exhaustive surveys,[41] and the degree of overclaim attributed to Typhoon pilots as a result was statistically improbable in view of the far lower known level of overclaim by Allied pilots in air-to-air combat, where claims were if anything more likely to be mistaken. Allied and German witness accounts of Typhoon attacks on German armour indicate that RPs did kill tanks with fair probability. Horst Weber, an SS panzergrenadier serving with Kampfgruppe Knaust south of Arnhem in the later stages of Operation Market Garden, recalled that, during a battle with British 43rd Wessex Division on 23 September 1944, "We had four Tiger tanks and three Panther tanks... We were convinced that we would gain another victory here, that we would smash the enemy forces. But then Typhoons dropped these rockets on our tanks and shot all seven to bits. And we cried... We would see two black dots in the sky and that always meant rockets. Then the rockets would hit the tanks which would burn. The soldiers would come out all burnt and screaming with pain." [42]
 

Honza

The Art Of Wargames
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
13,004
Reaction score
1,617
Location
Oxfordshire
First name
Jan
Country
llCzechia
And this....

The effect on the morale of German troops caught up in a Typhoon RP and cannon attack was decisive, with many tanks and vehicles being abandoned, in spite of superficial damage, such that, at Mortain, a signal from the German Army's Chief of Staff stated that the attack had been brought to a standstill by 13:00 '...due to the employment of fighter-bombers by the enemy, and the absence of our own air-support.'[43] The 20 mm cannon also destroyed a large number of (unarmoured) support vehicles, laden with fuel and ammunition for the armoured vehicles.[44] On 10 July at Mortain, flying in support of the US 30th Infantry Division, Typhoons flew 294 sorties in the afternoon that day, firing 2,088 rockets and dropping 80 short tons (73 t) of bombs.[45] They engaged the German formations while the US 9th Air Force prevented German fighters from intervening. Dwight D. Eisenhower, the Supreme Allied Commander, said of the Typhoons; "The chief credit in smashing the enemy's spearhead, however, must go to the rocket-firing Typhoon aircraft of the Second Tactical Air Force... The result of the strafing was that the enemy attack was effectively brought to a halt, and a threat was turned into a great victory."[
 

The Purist

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,846
Reaction score
1,335
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
It is very difficult the assess the success of air to ground rockets 'after' the war. I know that studies suggest only a 4% success rate; but that is after the event and derived from paperwork and stats. I read a report by a German tank commander who said that all seven of the tanks under his command were destroyed by rockets. The truth is that many German AFV were eliminated in Normandy by means other than tank vs tank warfare. The likely hood is that aircraft played a significant role which has been played down by historians and analysts.
Well, be careful with combat 'claims' (German, Allied or Red Army), there is a lot of wartime propaganda that made it into popular history after the war. These have not proven to be all that accurate, usually for lack of primary source data (reliance on secondary sources and memoirs). For example, when German kill claims are matched against unit records for allied formations it has often been found the numbers are not very close.

There is a good reason why eye-witness accounts are always treated with care and used only after a thorough check of other sources.

In the case of Mortain, for example, both allied pilots and German recipients of of the air attacks grossly over estimated the impact of bombs, rocket and cannon fire*. While a numerous tanks could be damaged, many inspected later found they were abandoned with only minor damage and were still functionally combat effective. However, as the Germans did not retain the Mortain battlefield so many tanks that could have been quickly put back into service were lost. The situation at Falaise was much the same, few actual kills, many tanks abandoned.

Note that the four panzer divisions that led the Mortain attack had approx 190 tanks. On the second day these formations were hit by heavy air attacks. One source puts the tanks losses at 81 destroyed, 54 damaged and 26 abandoned - 161 tanks - after 3 hours of attack. And yet the Germans persisted in the attack for the better part of a week,.... with just 30-40 tanks? ;)

*It appears the German crews simply panicked and ran. It is not all that surprising when you think about it. The Mortain attack had stalled within a short distance of the start line simply because US infantry would not give way. German armoured formations were being shot up by AT guns and TDs, American artillery had been massed and was pounding the stalled formations along the approach routes mercilessly and US armour was already known to be swinging around their flanks. Then came the incessant air attacks. The attack went so badly that Kluge was already asking to retreat even before all the assigned divisions could join the attack.
 

GeorgeBates

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
1,956
Reaction score
762
Location
Live at Budokan
Country
llJapan
Actually, post war studies found that aircraft actually 'killed' very few tanks, although many were damaged. The total kills were just a tiny fraction of those actually claimed by pilots. More importantly, damage and losses were most often inflicted behind the lines while units were moving, not on the tactical battlefield...
So it really was Tom Hanks' .45 after all?
 

Old Noob

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
406
Reaction score
355
Country
llUnited States
Well, you know what the landsers said: If it's green, it is British. If it's silver, it is American. And if it invisible, it is German.
Perfectly describes their views of fighters attacking their vehicle columns.
 

owenedwards

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
68
Reaction score
95
Location
Durham
Country
ll
I've been playing 241 Triumph Atop Taraldsvikfjell solitaire. Second full ASL scenario ever! (3rd game.) I have enough Allied Minor counters from SK2/SKEP2, I have CdG, and it's Inf/SW only. I read Ground Snow and it wasn't onerous at all (esp given the building layout basically means Kindling may as well be NA). So I set it up and realized that I had a lot of terrain rules to learn! It's a scenario about clearing Level 3 Hills, and there are cliffs. I also properly read the Wall/Hedge rules. With all that said, though - and that did take some time - it's not been hard to play. Initially very slow, undoubtedly - rules checking LOS rules on slopes a lot, properly learning what happens when a unit goes Berzerk, etc - but not hard. Finished two turns in a very slow 3 and a bit hours, but speeding up play rapidly - I expect I'll only take as long or slightly longer to play the remaining five turns.
 

The Purist

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,846
Reaction score
1,335
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
WEll,... Mr Honus and I completed the14 Sep Russian night counterattack and as expected the Germans came out ahead. The scenario lasted the full eight turns which meant most of the 90 odd German squads eventually were granted freedom of movement and they began to push through the Russian weak points. As the Russians had to concentrate to make the attack it meant some areas were held by little more than shadows. The Russian managed to recapture the eastern parts of 9th of January square, Pavlov's House, the Warehouse and Fluor Mill but lost ground almost everywhere else, particularly in the south and centre. Sometimes it seemed the Germans were stealthy and the Russian Lax as numerous CC definitely hurt the Russians (forcing them to avoid H-tH almost entirely).

Going in the Russian managed about 55 squads and perhaps a dozen leaders attacking 90+ German squads and all their kit. A 200mm rocket barrage bagged some German engineers and their 9-2 with the night ending with losses about equal. The German lost about 25 squads, 2 good leaders and a StuG IIIG but still had 67.5 squads, 20 leaders, 7 HMG, 4 MMG, three French hens, two turtle doves and partridge in a pear tree.

My Russians lost 2 KV-1s, 22 Squads and 4 leaders (two to wounds) including my 10-3 (alas we shall not see his like again). By the end I had 33 squads and 9 leaders (5 Commisars and 4 army) just 1HMG, 1 MMG, 7 LMGs, 2 ATR, 2 50* Mor and the starting guns (4 76L ART and 2 82* Mor). After reinforcements I'm not sure how my 50 odd squads and 12 leaders and supporting OBA will do on the 15th against an anticipated 90-95 Germans squads plus tanks, Stukas and OBA but we'll see.

Perimeter in the north:


16527

In the Centre

16528


And the South:

16529
 
Last edited:

Honza

The Art Of Wargames
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
13,004
Reaction score
1,617
Location
Oxfordshire
First name
Jan
Country
llCzechia
Just get the Russians to hang in there. After several scenarios the German will be running out of infantry RG while the Russian will get a load more. They will have to enter across the river but there are lots of them.
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,252
Reaction score
2,978
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
However, VotG is not a battle of attrition as is RB but one of position (Historically the Germans played into the Russian defense plans by attacking all along the line). If the Germans push hard in the center and shatter the the defense there while applying pressure along the front at other points sufficient to tie down the Russian's ability to reinforce the center or displace to meet the threat of being flanked; the Germans can make a good stab at taking a large number of piers under fire or capturing them. The Russians will have a hard row to hoe this day, it'll be fun but daunting. The 15th should almost determine the scenario final outcome given the current situation.
 

Honza

The Art Of Wargames
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
13,004
Reaction score
1,617
Location
Oxfordshire
First name
Jan
Country
llCzechia
If the Germans control some of the piers and some of the shore line can the Russians still attempt to enter across the river?
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
12,336
Reaction score
6,536
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
I just realized that our little 'game' has 708 pages of rules. Not even including most HASLs much less TPP...

16619

von Marwitz
 

volgaG68

Fighting WWII One DR At A Time
Joined
Jun 15, 2012
Messages
2,989
Reaction score
1,084
Location
La Crosse, KS
First name
Chris
Country
llUnited States
Just finished brushing up on BFP's article on slopes (CoS) alongside MMP's rulebook, so I can play LCP's Race to the Meuse using my LFT rat charts and BGD's sniper and FFE counters. God Bless all of you magnificent bastards for this Golden Age of ASL! 👍
 

Honza

The Art Of Wargames
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2005
Messages
13,004
Reaction score
1,617
Location
Oxfordshire
First name
Jan
Country
llCzechia
Have punched and filed lots of counters. Just a few more to go and I will be ready for my next CG.
 
Top