Today in ASL I ... (Day to day ASL doings)

[djohannsen]

Complications: the defenders are entirely concealed. Then the attacker cannot declare the OVR as it enters. It must enter as a separate expenditure, then if it is still able, it can declare the OVR IN the hex.

Thanks for the broad outline and the reminder that OVR must be declared prior to entering the hex. (What happens if you fail to so declare and the opponent is a stickler about such things [say, at a tourney]? Does the attacker bounce back, having expended the MP? If so, would the defender get TPBF against any PRC for the failed foray into its location?) Anyway, the overrun flow chart helped me here (i.e., with the general sequence). At first, I was trying to figure out the sequence of events solely from the rulebook and this was a tougher slog.

Some aspects of the bog mechanics when the overrun occurs against a unit in a building (which has nothing to do with overrun, per se) confused me. When I read something like, "if the colored dr <= 0," I knew that it was time to set things aside for a bit (otherwise, I know that bog isn't hard; just sum the modifiers and make a (modified) DR that's less than 12). If the bog check is unsuccessful (a situation that I don't recall seeing explicitly addressed), presumably the vehicle is immobilized in the defender's location and the OVR does NOT occur? If so, I presume that the vehicle could still BFF, but without the OVR +4? Presumably, the bogged AFV would no longer be "Motion," though? Also, I believe to overrun a unit in a building, the attacker would need 3/4 + COT remaining of its MP (and be BU CT Fully Tracked, not have fired its MA, etc). Again, I'm sure that tossing some counters on a board and slowly stepping through things will make it all clear - after all, we're not talking about Algebraic K Theory here (math reference, for those who might wonder).

Again, I can't say enough how grateful I am to everyone who has leapt up to help. The ASL community certainly has some generous people. (Though, there may also be some heretics in our ranks - for a fleeting moment, I thought that I saw mention of the IIFT in a post above ).

 

[djohannsen]

Hello there - this is Carl Nogueira's marketing agent here - grab a hold of ASL Journal 8 and read "CROSSTOWN TRAFFIC - a detailed look at the Vehicular Overrun". You absolutely can't go wrong with this.

I got a copy of Journal #8 not all that long ago. I will definitely pull it off the shelf and have a go at this article. Thank you!

P.S. Just grabbed the issue and was greeted with ten pages of OVR goodness by Mr. Nogueira. That ought to help even someone like me!

P.P.S. Just started the article. Even if the attacker is eliminated by DFF (other than CC reaction) the OVR occurs at half FP?! Wow! This is some crazy stuff. We've come a long way from SK#1, baby.

 

[djohannsen]

The Overrun article in one of the Backblast mags is a great one to read as well;dont have the issue number handy but can say it was either issue 1 or 2.

Thank you for the pointer. Sadly, I don't have any issues of Backblast, and don't even recall ever having seen one listed for sale anywhere (I've been keeping an ear to the ground for ASL stuff as I've been building my kit over the last eight or nine months). I will add a "saved search" at eBay and start looking for this publication.

 

[Philippe D.]

Again, lots of details, but that is the broad outline.

JR

I nominate JR for rewriting he rulebook in a way that presents every rule this way: first a broad outline, then details.

Even better as an e-RB: first you see only the broad outline, then you click on it and you get all the ugly details.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Thanks for the broad outline and the reminder that OVR must be declared prior to entering the hex. (What happens if you fail to so declare and the opponent is a stickler about such things [say, at a tourney]? Does the attacker bounce back, having expended the MP? If so, would the defender get TPBF against any PRC for the failed foray into its location?) Anyway, the overrun flow chart helped me here (i.e., with the general sequence). At first, I was trying to figure out the sequence of events solely from the rulebook and this was a tougher slog.

Some aspects of the bog mechanics when the overrun occurs against a unit in a building (which has nothing to do with overrun, per se) confused me. When I read something like, "if the colored dr <= 0," I knew that it was time to set things aside for a bit (otherwise, I know that bog isn't hard; just sum the modifiers and make a (modified) DR that's less than 12). If the bog check is unsuccessful (a situation that I don't recall seeing explicitly addressed), presumably the vehicle is immobilized in the defender's location and the OVR does NOT occur? If so, I presume that the vehicle could still BFF, but without the OVR +4? Presumably, the bogged AFV would no longer be "Motion," though? Also, I believe to overrun a unit in a building, the attacker would need 3/4 + COT remaining of its MP (and be BU CT Fully Tracked, not have fired its MA, etc). Again, I'm sure that tossing some counters on a board and slowly stepping through things will make it all clear - after all, we're not talking about Algebraic K Theory here (math reference, for those who might wonder).

Again, I can't say enough how grateful I am to everyone who has leapt up to help. The ASL community certainly has some generous people. (Though, there may also be some heretics in our ranks - for a fleeting moment, I thought that I saw mention of the IIFT in a post above ).

That's a typo .. he has a loose "I" key. JRV is a well known lifelong IFT fan ~

 

[Carln0130]

Hello there - this is Carl Nogueira's marketing agent here - grab a hold of ASL Journal 8 and read "CROSSTOWN TRAFFIC - a detailed look at the Vehicular Overrun". You absolutely can't go wrong with this.

Rgds Jack

Does this guy earn his 10%, or what?

 

[von Marwitz]

(Though, there may also be some heretics in our ranks - for a fleeting moment, I thought that I saw mention of the IIFT in a post above ).

You saw a true believer. Of course, the others are the heretics... :bow:

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

What happens if you fail to so declare and the opponent is a stickler about such things [say, at a tourney]? Does the attacker bounce back, having expended the MP? If so, would the defender get TPBF against any PRC for the failed foray into its location?

Not declaring as you enter is the opposite of what actually happens. If a player makes a mistake, it will always be by declaring as they enter when the target is entirely concealed. But assuming you find the only player in the world who fails to declare as he enters (probably from a previously unknown tribe living on a small, jungled island off Borneo, where a copy of ASL has washed ashore after being blown off the deck of a freighter during a typhoon), we have a name for entering a hex with enemy units without declaring OVR. It is called "VBM sleaze freeze." The vehicle enters the hex. Mic drop. Vehicles may enter hexes with enemy units [D2.1], and in most cases may remain there [but, D2.6]. There are situations where the vehicle cannot enter the hex and does not know that before attempting it, but they are rare. A unit prevented from entering a hex/location is not subject to TPBF in that hex nor attacked by an OBA FFE, mines, etc. that might exist in that hex.

JR

 

[jrv]

Some aspects of the bog mechanics when the overrun occurs against a unit in a building (which has nothing to do with overrun, per se) confused me. When I read something like, "if the colored dr <= 0," I knew that it was time to set things aside for a bit (otherwise, I know that bog isn't hard; just sum the modifiers and make a (modified) DR that's less than 12). If the bog check is unsuccessful (a situation that I don't recall seeing explicitly addressed), presumably the vehicle is immobilized in the defender's location and the OVR does NOT occur? If so, I presume that the vehicle could still BFF, but without the OVR +4? Presumably, the bogged AFV would no longer be "Motion," though? Also, I believe to overrun a unit in a building, the attacker would need 3/4 + COT remaining of its MP (and be BU CT Fully Tracked, not have fired its MA, etc). Again, I'm sure that tossing some counters on a board and slowly stepping through things will make it all clear - after all, we're not talking about Algebraic K Theory here (math reference, for those who might wonder).

A "colored dr <= 0" should probably read "final colored dr <= 0", i.e. there are drm. You are probably referring to AFV entry into a building, where a colored dr <= 0 rubbles the building, and an original colored 6 results in falling in the cellar.

A vehicle that bogs is technically not immobilized but bogged. A vehicle that is immobilized has no chance of regaining its mobility; a vehicle that is merely bogged might recover. While bogged the vehicle is immobile, but it is not immobilized (ASL forces you to write odd sentences).

A vehicle that has declared an OVR completes that OVR even if it becomes immobile (/dead), but at half FP [D7.11].

A vehicle that is moving in its MPh is not "In Motion." Being "In Motion" is a technical term for a vehicle that has not expended a stop MP, but it applies only in phases other than its MPh [D2.4]. The vehicle is marked with an "In Motion" counter. During the vehicle's MPh, you remove any "In Motion" counter, expend MP as you like, then if the vehicle is not stopped at the end of its MPh, place an "In Motion" counter on it.

Note that a vehicle can be stopped/not In Motion, but still be a "moving target" [C.8]. Generally a bogged vehicle will be stopped & immobile but a "moving target" until the end of the player turn. This is due to the timey-wimey effects of applying a phase structure to real life. Learning the different "moving" states for vehicles (non-stopped vs. stopped and moving target [C.8] vs. non-moving) may be the greatest rules challenge for anyone learning the system. All four states are possible (e.g. stopped but moving).

The MP cost to OVR in a building will be 3/4 MP allotment with no additions. The COT is 1/2 MP allotment.

JR

 

[djohannsen]

we have a name for entering a hex with enemy units without declaring OVR. It is called "VBM sleaze freeze."

Of course! (light bulb)

I was thinking of the situation where the attacker intends OVR, but eagerly pushes his counter into the hex without making an audible declaration prior (either because the attacker is overly excited about the carnage that will soon ensue, or so stressed about trying to correctly remember/apply all the rules that he forgets the obvious). Though I don't play that way, were my opponent to insist that I could not OVR because I failed to declare before entering the hex, I would certainly respect the rules of the game and his prerogative to insist on playing by said rules.

It was pondering this situation that gave birth to my question. That one would allow the vehicle to enter, in by-pass, is the obvious answer.

Thanks for the information and your patience.

 

[djohannsen]

A "colored dr <= 0" should probably read "final colored dr <= 0", i.e. there are drm. You are probably referring to AFV entry into a building, where a colored dr <= 0 rubbles the building, and an original colored 6 results in falling in the cellar.

You, sir, are 100% correct. I found it odd that drm could be applied only to the colored die. Please, though, do not take any more time to explain - I could not allow you to spend more time holding my hand than I have in trying to read the rules. The bog rules are something that I will revisit this evening.

(ASL forces you to write odd sentences).

A brilliant and most helpful summary and discussion. Thank you for taking the time to write all this down. I pride myself on being able to think fairly carefully, but it seems that one has to reach a sort of "critical mass" with the rules (e.g., knowing which words have precise meaning in the rules and which have only their usual English conversational ambiguity) before the pieces start falling into place. You have been a huge help. Allow me to add your name to the growing list of those for whom i would like to buy a dinner should we ever cross paths at a tourney.

 

[jrv]

I found it odd that drm could be applied only to the colored die.

ASL tries as a game to combine DRs & drs to reduce the amount of rolling. For another example, taking ROF off the colored die instead of having a separate die. When there is a separate die and the die has "different meaning" than the other two (e.g. a light dust hindrance die), it's clunky to read the dice. Part of the reason that ASL plays well is that it has a smooth flow and doesn't throw a lot of change-ups in procedure (although it does throw enough to keep it interesting). Once you are using dice for separate purposes, adding drm to the individual dice seems the most natural thing in the world.

JR

 

[Carln0130]

Of course! (light bulb)

I was thinking of the situation where the attacker intends OVR, but eagerly pushes his counter into the hex without making an audible declaration prior (either because the attacker is overly excited about the carnage that will soon ensue, or so stressed about trying to correctly remember/apply all the rules that he forgets the obvious). Though I don't play that way, were my opponent to insist that I could not OVR because I failed to declare before entering the hex, I would certainly respect the rules of the game and his prerogative to insist on playing by said rules.

It was pondering this situation that gave birth to my question. That one would allow the vehicle to enter, in by-pass, is the obvious answer.

Thanks for the information and your patience.

Not to further confuse the sh*t out of you, but the declaration does not ALWAYS have to be simultaneous with entry of the location. You probably noticed the caveat about, provided the location does not consist of unknown enemy units. You could move into a location that only has concealed enemy units in it. You can just pay the COT at that point and see what the enemy does re: retaining concealment. If say an infantry HS is in there concealed and with a CCV of 3, isn't feeling too good about his chances against a non-stopped AFV, (basically needs snake eyes) so he decides, he is going to try to keep concealment and maybe draw an ambush, because the AFV player might have mistaken him for something more valuable. The process would go like this:
Step 1: AFV enters the location, but does not declare overrun. Pays normal entry cost.
Step 2: HS decides to play it cool and attempt to lie low and keep concealment. A12.41 now rears its ugly head. (Actually, its not all that ugly, I just don't like it very much.). Read this VERY carefully. It will be an eye opener and get you to some "next level" thinking about the importance of concealment. It will also give you an increased appreciation of Heroes,fanatics, SMC and the Japanese. Also known, as people who don't need to take PAATC's.
Step 3, once the PAATC has been taken, NOW the AFV can decide to spend the overrun expenditure and overrun, or not.

So if there are KEU (Known Enemy Units) in the location, you have to make the call to overrun upon entry of the hex. If not, and ALL the units in the location in question are NOT KEU, then you can await developments before committing to the overrun.

Hope that helps.

 

[djohannsen]

Not to further confuse the sh*t out of you, but the declaration does not ALWAYS have to be simultaneous with entry of the location. You probably noticed the caveat about, provided the location does not consist of unknown enemy units. You could move into a location that only has concealed enemy units in it. You can just pay the COT at that point and see what the enemy does re: retaining concealment. If say an infantry HS is in there concealed and with a CCV of 3, isn't feeling too good about his chances against a non-stopped AFV, (basically needs snake eyes) so he decides, he is going to try to keep concealment and maybe draw an ambush, because the AFV player might have mistaken him for something more valuable. The process would go like this:
Step 1: AFV enters the location, but does not declare overrun. Pays normal entry cost.
Step 2: HS decides to play it cool and attempt to lie low and keep concealment. A12.41 now rears its ugly head. (Actually, its not all that ugly, I just don't like it very much.). Read this VERY carefully. It will be an eye opener and get you to some "next level" thinking about the importance of concealment. It will also give you an increased appreciation of Heroes,fanatics, SMC and the Japanese. Also known, as people who don't need to take PAATC's.
Step 3, once the PAATC has been taken, NOW the AFV can decide to spend the overrun expenditure and overrun, or not.

So if there are KEU (Known Enemy Units) in the location, you have to make the call to overrun upon entry of the hex. If not, and ALL the units in the location in question are NOT KEU, then you can await developments before committing to the overrun.

Hope that helps.

First, a quick follow-up (so that it doesn't get lost). If you commit to the OVR against a concealed unit, it is as area fire (I think that's what I read in A12.41). So, do I have it correct that the FP for the OVR would be tripled and then quartered and then the base OVR (+1, +2, +4, as appropriate) added?

Second, thank you for adding to my mental overload. You give and give, until it hurts (hurts me, that is). Actually, it basically makes sense, though it would have been hard for me to pull that out of the rulebook by myself.

Finally, I spent some time at lunch and got a start on your article in Journal #8 (Mr. Nogueira, I presume?). The sub-paragraph by sub-paragraph walk through the rules in that article is EXTREMELY helpful. I can read the rules and even think that I understand, but miss important points. For example, I'm sure that I could have read D7.11 many times and not noticed that embarked units in unarmored HT have their firepower tripled and quartered. I'm really looking forward to finishing this article and working through the examples that you provided. Chapeau!


Dave

 

[Carln0130]

First, a quick follow-up (so that it doesn't get lost). If you commit to the OVR against a concealed unit, it is as area fire (I think that's what I read in A12.41). So, do I have it correct that the FP for the OVR would be tripled and then quartered and then the base OVR (+1, +2, +4, as appropriate) added?

Second, thank you for adding to my mental overload. You give and give, until it hurts (hurts me, that is). Actually, it basically makes sense, though it would have been hard for me to pull that out of the rulebook by myself.

Finally, I spent some time at lunch and got a start on your article in Journal #8 (Mr. Nogueira, I presume?). The sub-paragraph by sub-paragraph walk through the rules in that article is EXTREMELY helpful. I can read the rules and even think that I understand, but miss important points. For example, I'm sure that I could have read D7.11 many times and not noticed that embarked units in unarmored HT have their firepower tripled and quartered. I'm really looking forward to finishing this article and working through the examples that you provided. Chapeau!


Dave

Yup, that's me Dave. Yes, if you commit to the overrun against a concealed unit, you have, in most, but not all cases, a base of 4, depending on the AFV, it could be 2, then the IFE, MG's get tripled, then halved for concealed and halved for non-stopped, to yield your final number. Always good to get in the habit of doing it that way. Short cutting math and lumping in modifiers is a sure fire way to get the wrong final answer in ASL.

So let's say a Whirbelwind comes cruising into a hex, for to make mincemeat out of a concealed HS. The base is 2, not 4, due to the MA being IFE capable, the 3 MG and 20 IFE are then tripled, then halved, then halved again and added to the 2 for your final number. So, 2+ 23 x 3 =69 divide by 2, divide by 2 add to 2, so 34.5 down to 17.25 + 2= 19.25= table 16 for the Overrun. Still not a happy HS, but happier than if he is swalloing hard on a table 36. . Of course, HS being HS, he can pop a 8+2 at the Whirbelwind (assuming an American 3-4-6) when he entered the location, prior to his decision to overrun or not, or even following it, hoping to stun the beast. If he succeeds, he only gets hit with a.......16. At least he puts a dent in the AFV that way though.

Generally speaking though, that type of AFV is best used, mopping the floor with broken guys that didn't quite make it back to cover, if you are going to overrun at all with them.

 

[jrv]

If you commit to the OVR against a concealed unit, it is as area fire (I think that's what I read in A12.41). So, do I have it correct that the FP for the OVR would be tripled and then quartered and then the base OVR (+1, +2, +4, as appropriate) added?

The total FP (including the base FP) is halved. An AFV with an ordnance MA only OVRs at four FP vs. an unconcealed unit and at two FP vs a concealed unit.

JR

 

[djohannsen]

The total FP (including the base FP) is halved. An AFV with an ordnance MA only OVRs at four FP vs. an unconcealed unit and at two FP vs a concealed unit.

JR

Ah... Thanks to you and Carl, I may actually get close to playing this approximately correctly. (I'm sure, though, that I'll still manage to botch some portion of the rules, but I'm also sure that I won't be the first to do so.)

Again, thank you to you both!

 

[Carln0130]

The total FP (including the base FP) is halved. An AFV with an ordnance MA only OVRs at four FP vs. an unconcealed unit and at two FP vs a concealed unit.

JR

Well that is true. You have the base of 1 or 2 or 4, depending what you have overrunning, plus the tripled and halved FP of the IFE and MG. Then the base is added to the tripled and halved and everything including the base, then gets halved again for concealed, yes.

 

[Carln0130]

Ah... Thanks to you and Carl, I may actually get close to playing this approximately correctly. (I'm sure, though, that I'll still manage to botch some portion of the rules, but I'm also sure that I won't be the first to do so.)

Again, thank you to you both!

Glad to help. It is one of the more complicated portions of the more commonly used rules.

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

Glad to help. It is one of the more complicated portions of the more commonly used rules.

This (accurate) sentence is basically in ASLese. Very meta, Carl. Well played.