to halve or not to halve, that is the question

Harms

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Consider the following situation:
Inside a pillbox is a concealed friendly MMC. Outside the pillbox in the same hex is an enemy MMC. It is the CC phase. The friendly MMC will NOT attack the enemy MMC in this phase (intending to stay concealed).

A12.13 EFFECT: All fire and CC vs a concealed unit are halved as Area Fire [EXC: Residual FP, OBA, ordnance, Sniper, and minefield attacks].

B30.7 CONCEALMENT: A pillbox Location is Concealment Terrain; however, "?"/HIP in a pillbox neither halves the FP of, nor adds a TH DRM to, an attack on it/its-contents.

Must the enemy MMC halve it's firepower vs the friendly MMC in this case?

TIA
 

Pyth

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The CC attack FP is not halved, following the general principle of E.2, i.e. in case of a seeming contradiction the later rule wins.

JR
From reading some Q&As I've gathered that EXC's are not necessarily comprehensive. So there's no official erratum required for A12.13 -- nevertheless I believe one could pencil in "Pillbox" into the A12.13 EXC as an unofficial but otherwise quite correct addition.

*edit... actually to be 'quite correct' I think it would need to be:

A12.13 EFFECT: All fire and CC vs a concealed unit are halved as Area Fire [EXC: Residual FP, OBA, ordnance, Sniper, and minefield attacks, or vs a pillbox occupant].

Also To Halve and Halve Not, starring Humphrey Bogroll and Lauren Recall is one of my favorite films.
 
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Stewart

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But does it really need that addition? PB are specific rules and they have what you need there. The other effects can occur in a VARIETY of situations for each.
But I get you. Brevity or just forgetting was probably the reason.
 

Pyth

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But does it really need that addition? PB are specific rules and they have what you need there. The other effects can occur in a VARIETY of situations for each.
But I get you. Brevity or just forgetting was probably the reason.
I don't know what the criteria are for EXC's or even if there were a consistently applied criteria when making the RB. I understand what you're saying about 'Variety' .... but at the same time some other very-specific-to-Pillbox-CC peculiarities are called out in the EXC's of other rules. I think the lack of mention was a simple oversight as you mentioned, anyway the Pillbox rules are clear and unambiguous enough to make it no big deal. Actually, doesn't everyone do what I do with Pillboxes... when Pillboxes are in a scenario, I re-read those Pillbox rules, cuz they're weird, clear, but weird.... I don't reread the concealment rules every scenario (probably should though!) ... so the Pillbox rules are fresh in mind and I'm not digging around in the concealment rules looking for contradiction. That's my guess why this discrepancy hasn't caught much notice previously, it doesn't really jump out at you. I don't know about you but whenever the answer is:

...following the general principle of E.2, i.e. in case of a seeming contradiction the later rule wins....

I'm like, ok, somebody found another glitch in the RB.
 
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mgmasl

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Is the FP attack from CA vs hidden pillbox ocupantes halved? I’ve seen this tactic used to search pillboxes.. i mean firing using full FP vs hidden pillboxes -firing at empty hexes-
 

Brian W

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No, fire at a pillbox is not halved for concealment. However, a pillbox represents a separate location and so must be predesignated as the target of fire that only affects one location (e.g. a Small Arms attack).
 

mgmasl

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I know.. question is if an attack vs a hidden pillbox is possible or not.. may you declare the attack vs the hidden pillbox?. Ie when the pillbox is not present in the hex may be a target?
 

jrv

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I know.. question is if an attack vs a hidden pillbox is possible or not.. may you declare the attack vs the hidden pillbox?. Ie when the pillbox is not present in the hex may be a target?
One is allowed to declare an attack against a potential pillbox location, and case K DRM/halving does not affect the attack.

B30.7 Does "?"/HIP in a Pillbox halve FP or add Case K To Hit DRM if the Pillbox is Hidden?
A. No; note though that a pillbox/its-contents may ordinarily be affected by direct fire only if the pillbox is predesignated as a target Location (B30.34). [Compil3]
It is a rule with which I am not happy. But in most cases it isn't too harmful because either pillboxes are revealed on LOS, or there are too many potential pillbox locations to make it worthwhile.

JR
 

mgmasl

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Amazing rule.. firing at full FP at an unknowed location.. exactly the same shot againts the pillbox if a Known target.
 

jrv

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Amazing rule.. firing at full FP at an unknowed location.. exactly the same shot againts the pillbox if a Known target.
As I said, I think it usually isn't a major problem. If a scenario designer feels it is a problem, it is trivial to change by SSR. Suicide Creek is the CG where I think it is most annoying, and even in that it probably doesn't make that much difference as it is usually pretty easy to find the pillboxes in other ways. Personally I prefer treating them as concealed while the pillbox itself is still HIP (unless a unit inside isn't).

JR
 
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Brian W

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I was aware of the Q&A, but don't want to give it much credence because I too disagree with it.

Agree with your opponent how to play it before you pick sides if it's a PTO bug hunt. Otherwise, it probably won't matter as JR says.
 

Pyth

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Walk me through that Q&A please. Do I have this right -- A dense jungle hex contains a HIP pillbox with a HIP squad inside, and there is another HIP squad in that hex but outside the pilllbox location. A gun can target the "potential pillbox location" of the hex with ITT -- and The TH roll will have normal DRM's including the pillbox's applicable facing DRM but there is no Case K on the TH roll? The HIP squad outside the pillbox cannot be affected by the shot as it is not in the targeted location. Is that right?
 

Eagle4ty

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No real need to walk you through it as you've properly ascertained the correct application of the rules. However the reason for no Case K was stated above by JRV (B30.7) and the unit outside the PB would not be effected because it is in a separate location (B30.1) from the PB.
 

mgmasl

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ATT attacks the full hex affecting all locations.. but there is not the case when using IFP vs a hex.. firing IFP you have to desígnate an specific location.. so desígnate an IFP attack at full FP vs an unknown location is so strange. It would be fine an errata on this particular issue as Klas posted. No problem at all with not allowed or halved attack, but it’s very stranfe that a halved attack may affect HIP pillboxes and HIP units not in the pillbox but not known pillboxes and know units outside.. and ITOH desígnate specific attacks vs HIP pillboxes not affecting other HIP units at same level in the hex it’s IMHO excesively absurd..
 

jrv

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Anyone sent this question to MMP?
From the q&a:

A7. & B30.
Is it allowed to fire on the IFT versus a suspected but unknown pseudo location in order to reveal a potential unknown pillbox?
With revelation only occurring should such fire be through a CA facing and achieving a PTC or better.
A. Yes to both.

B30.7 Does "?"/HIP in a Pillbox halve FP or add Case K To Hit DRM if the Pillbox is Hidden?
A. No; note though that a pillbox/its-contents may ordinarily be affected by direct fire only if the pillbox is predesignated as a target Location (B30.34). [Compil3]
As far as the rules are concerned, a unit in a pillbox is never given the benefit of concealment, even if the pillbox is still HIP. So between the q&a above and the standard rules, there is no benefit to concealment when fired on in a HIP pseudo pillbox location. I don't think at this point a question would get you anything but a confirmation of the current state. What would be needed is a true erratum, i.e. a change to the rules as they currently stand.

JR
 
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mgmasl

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I think Compil3 is refering to KNOWN pillbox.. I think question needs to specify fire vs UNKNOWN pillbox, not only vs unknown units inside a known one..

And more.. I think a fire predesignatef vs an unknown Pillbox is imposible (ilogic, absurd,...) Only option by rules mechanism is an Área Fire shot affecting all locatios in the hex.. how is possible presesignate a shot vs an unknown location not affecting other location —at same level- in the same hex?.. ASL is a game but this kind of reality can’t be ignored
 
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klasmalmstrom

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I think Compil3 is refering to KNOWN pillbox.. I think question needs to specify fire vs UNKNOWN pillbox, not only vs unknown units inside a known one..
Only the second Q&A above is related to "[Compil3]". The second one:

A7. & B30.
Is it allowed to fire on the IFT versus a suspected but unknown pseudo location in order to reveal a potential unknown pillbox?
With revelation only occurring should such fire be through a CA facing and achieving a PTC or better.
A. Yes to both.

..is much more recent, and this one does allow fire vs a "potential unknown pillbox".
 
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