Tiny Tim Rockets

[Honza]

If I am not mistaken the Tiny Tim Rocket can only hit a cave on a DR of 2. It fires from 7-12 hexes away as per straffing run so its basic TH # is 7. It recieves +1 for the ITT, and +4TEM vs the cave CA. So only a 2 will achieve a hit.

The rules on page BFP7 say that an Original 2 DR always results in a CH vs a Cave. Plus a CH automatically eliminates a cave.

It then goes onto the say that a cave can also be eliminated as per G11.88. How so? Can you give me an example?

G11.88 says that an HE CH of 100mm+ eliminates a cave, and that DC's may eliminate a cave on either an Original KIA or a Final KIA depending on circumstances. How does that relate to the Tiny Tim Rocket?

Thanks.

 

[Vinnie]

If there is smoke or other hindrance in the way the TH roll may be less than 2 so a normal hit may be achieved via improbable hit mechanics. Thus if such is done the tiny Tom must be counted as >100mm for such purposes.

 

[Honza]

An Original 2 DR is always considered a CH by the rocket.

So the reference to G11.88 is extra. There is an extra way the rocket can destroy caves. But I don't see it.

 

[Vinnie]

okay what of a large gun in the cave. This would be hit on a 3 since it is +1 TH so you can get the hit but no CH.

 

[jrv]

okay what of a large gun in the cave. This would be hit on a 3 since it is +1 TH so you can get the hit but no CH.

A Gun is always considered a normal sized target in a cave [G11.83].

JR

 

[Honza]

Keep trying Vinnie, lol. We really need some input from the BFP staff.

I though one possible way G11.88 might apply is when the rocket is a miss on the ITT, but is a hit on the ATT. The rules say that if the ITT misses but a hit is achieved on the ATT then the hit is resolved as area fire with added TEM DRM. Perhaps if there is an Original KIA result on the area fire resolution the cave is eliminated? I really don't know!

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

OK,

Y'all got me to ask, "What is a Tiny Tim rocket?"

 

[jrv]

OK,

Y'all got me to ask, "What is a Tiny Tim rocket?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_Tim_(rocket)

JR

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_Tim_(rocket)

JR

Thanks man

 

[rreinesch]

If I am not mistaken the Tiny Tim Rocket can only hit a cave on a DR of 2. It fires from 7-12 hexes away as per straffing run so its basic TH # is 7. It recieves +1 for the ITT, and +4TEM vs the cave CA. So only a 2 will achieve a hit.

The rules on page BFP7 say that an Original 2 DR always results in a CH vs a Cave. Plus a CH automatically eliminates a cave.

It then goes onto the say that a cave can also be eliminated as per G11.88. How so? Can you give me an example?

G11.88 says that an HE CH of 100mm+ eliminates a cave, and that DC's may eliminate a cave on either an Original KIA or a Final KIA depending on circumstances. How does that relate to the Tiny Tim Rocket?

Thanks.

Let's take it in steps.

First, there is more than one way for the Tiny Tim to effect the cave. You are correct that a Direct Hit on a Cave can only occur with a TH DR of 2, which is a CH as you have noted. The other way that the Tiny Tim could effect the cave would be if the rocket would have hit without considering TEM (Same BFP Aircraft Rule 1.4). So this would happen on a DR of 6 or less. In this case, it would effect the target as if firing on the ATT (i.e., half FP and including TEM) even though you are still firing on the ITT for TH purposes. So for the Tiny Tim this would be a 20FP attack at +4 (assuming no other TEM modifiers are involved in addition to the Cave's CA mod).

Since a Tiny Tim can be fired on more that one type of target, the only reason for the reference to G11.88 is how to resolve an attack against a Cave. (This would fall under the HE attack >= 100mm criteria).

Hope that helps.

Rick

 

[Honza]

Let's take it in steps.

First, there is more than one way for the Tiny Tim to effect the cave. You are correct that a Direct Hit on a Cave can only occur with a TH DR of 2, which is a CH as you have noted. The other way that the Tiny Tim could effect the cave would be if the rocket would have hit without considering TEM (Same BFP Aircraft Rule 1.4). So this would happen on a DR of 6 or less. In this case, it would effect the target as if firing on the ATT (i.e., half FP and including TEM) even though you are still firing on the ITT for TH purposes. So for the Tiny Tim this would be a 20FP attack at +4 (assuming no other TEM modifiers are involved in addition to the Cave's CA mod).

Since a Tiny Tim can be fired on more that one type of target, the only reason for the reference to G11.88 is how to resolve an attack against a Cave. (This would fall under the HE attack >= 100mm criteria).

Hope that helps.

Rick

Hi Rick,

Thankyou for the reply. There are a couple of problems that I can see here.

First of all is the issue of the Tiny Tim FP being halved as Area Fire for the ATT. If I'm not mistaken when FP is halved for Area Fire it is the IFT equivalent that is halved and not the ordnance size in caliber.

So the Tiny Tim effects DR, when it is halved, is 16FP (half of 36FP) and not 20FP (half of 200mm).

The rules categorically state that the Fire Power is halved - not the ordnance caliber. The Tiny Tim rocket has 36 FP. So when that is halved it goes down to 16 FP. You don't halve the Tiny Tim rocket caliber from 200mm to 100mm.....

Also, according to G11.88, it is ONLY CH's of 100mm or more which eliminate a cave. Which is the same as saying that any CH by the Tiny Tim rocket will eliminate a cave.

 

[rreinesch]

Hi Rick,

Thankyou for the reply. There are a couple of problems that I can see here.

First of all is the issue of the Tiny Tim FP being halved as Area Fire for the ATT. If I'm not mistaken when FP is halved for Area Fire it is the IFT equivalent that is halved and not the ordnance size in caliber.

So the Tiny Tim effects DR, when it is halved, is 16FP (half of 36FP) and not 20FP (half of 200mm).

The rules categorically state that the Fire Power is halved - not the ordnance caliber. The Tiny Tim rocket has 36 FP. So when that is halved it goes down to 16 FP. You don't halve the Tiny Tim rocket caliber from 200mm to 100mm.....

I stand corrected, you are right it would be on the 16FP column when treated as an ATT attack. Not quite up into the heavy payload realm yet.

Also, according to G11.88, it is ONLY CH's of 100mm or more which eliminate a cave. Which is the same as saying that any CH by the Tiny Tim rocket will eliminate a cave.

Right, and this is still a CH of 200mm on the ITT. What is different about this is not that it is an ATT shot, it is still treated as an ITT type of shot, but the effects in the case where there would have been a hit without considering TEM are as if using an ATT shot (i.e. half FP). What we are trying to replicate is that if the rocket achieves a Direct Hit, the effect is nasty, but even getting 'close enough' still imparts a lot of hurt. So in the case of a Cave, if you manage to snake a TT into the mouth of the cave with a Direct Hit (on a 2 TH DR) then there is no possibility of a critical, it will be a CH.

 

[Chas]

Honza,

I dont have the ASLRB in front of me, but not sure what the "issue" is. I believe G11.88 goes into details about what happens to cave and its contents on a CH.
So is the problem redundancy of information?

Based on a coupe of your questions, one would assume you are tackling a BFP 3 scenario perhaps Typhoon of Steel?

THanks
Chas

 

[Honza]

Honza,

I dont have the ASLRB in front of me, but not sure what the "issue" is. I believe G11.88 goes into details about what happens to cave and its contents on a CH.
So is the problem redundancy of information?

I think that may be the case. "redundancy of information". I'm not sure what the reference to G11.88 is supposed to imply. The BFP rules say that a cave can *also* be eliminated by a Tiny Tim rocket according to G11.88. But it seems that is not the case.

Either a Tiny Tim rocket destroys a cave by a CH or it does not. I don't see any other way a TT rocket can destroy a cave.....is there another way? (other than by a CH?)

Based on a coupe of your questions, one would assume you are tackling a BFP 3 scenario perhaps Typhoon of Steel?

THanks
Chas

Hi Chas, lol. I'm actually tackling my own Iwo Jima CG. Although Tiny Tim rockets were not used on Iwo Jima as far as I can tell, I'm using the BFP rules and counters for 127mm rocket attacks on Iwo Jima. The rules are an excellent addition to the game! I'm grateful. As I was reading about 127mm rocket attacks I read the Tiny Tim rules - where this issue cropped up.

 

[rreinesch]

I think that may be the case. "redundancy of information". I'm not sure what the reference to G11.88 is supposed to imply. The BFP rules say that a cave can *also* be eliminated by a Tiny Tim rocket according to G11.88. But it seems that is not the case.

Either a Tiny Tim rocket destroys a cave by a CH or it does not. I don't see any other way a TT rocket can destroy a cave.....is there another way? (other than by a CH?)

Perhaps, but the TT could be fired at a lot more than just caves. So the 'also' is saying, you can attack x, y and z, and can also eliminate a cave if you use G11.88. The fact that pretty much always you would need a 2 TH DR to hit a cave (which btw is also a CH), G11.88 tells us that this would also eliminate the cave in this case, not just kill the occupants.