Tinkering wth the PDT's/OOB's

[sedomlsr]

I have no particular problem with pikemen forming line formations, as melee units they usually have no advantageous reason to do so. When pikemen deployed in shallow formations historically, it was usually to cover a wider frontage or defend obstacles, so the ability to form extended lines is not even a problem as I see it (and pike blocks are among the few units in REN large enough to do so).

Regarding the number of shots, I'm afraid I don't understand the game mechanics enough here to comment. Is the formula for shooting based on the number of men in the unit? If so, then how many skirmish units are associated with a pike block is less relevant than the total number of men; I would argue for a historical 1-6 skirmish units depending on the period, army, and formation.

I agree that even large pike-and-shot formations would fit within a single 100m hex when formed. Without dragging up a debate about how pike-and-shot formations behaved "normally", there were at least certain situations where the shot would be deployed >100 m. from the main formation, particularly in the Spanish army (Jemmingen Mookerheyde, Nordlingen in the TYW, etc.) Also, in my opinion making decisions about these low-level infantry tactics is exactly what makes this period dynamic and interesting. I don't think lumping shot in with the pike units is the solution.

Let me be clear I think depicting all arquebusiers as skirmishers is a less than ideal workaround to the current problem of formed units negating the pike block defensive advantage. The no-bayonets melee modifier and the short range of arquebusiers relative to the movement rate for cavalry place shooters (and really all infantry) at enough of a disadvantage without the danger of being overrun automatically.

What I would like to see is the pike advantage against cavalry being phased out progressively based on the proportion of pikemen stacked in a hex, the formation of the pikemen, and whether they are disordered. Pikemen ought to suffer a greater disadvantage than other units from being disordered--which would both allow opportunistic cavalry charges and give halberdiers and swordsmen more of a chance against them. I would prefer to reserve the skirmisher formation for actual skirmishers, like those deployed by both sides at Nieupoort, and described vividly in Francis Vere's account.

But rather than talking about it, we should test some of these things. Anyone want to try a pbem game with some OOB modifications? Email me if interested.

 

[Lord_Valentai]

What sort of mods did you have in mind? I'm best doing things at the weekend.

 

[sedomlsr]

Well, I think a reasonable start would be:
a) All pikes coded as 1 so they can fight in column
b) All shot are skirmishers by default, to avoid negating the pike block bonus or leaving parent units of arquebusiers behind
c) negative melee value for pike, so that halberds or swordsmen can do some damage against them.

I already mentioned that I think b) is less than ideal, but we can see if it makes shot too weak relative to cavalry. I would try any scenario, and am open to ideas, but c) would likely come into play in the earlier Italian wars with more halberds and swords on the field, whereas b) is most relevant in the later period.

I've also been experimenting with the "Tercio" weapon. People have discussed ways of detaching only the shot component of mixed pike-and-shot units, but this hardly seems necessary; the detachments, by virtue of being skirmishers, will have no melee ability and can be thought of as pure shot.

Problem is, units can either deploy one detachment of skirmishers, or break down completely. Does anyone know of a way to code the .pdt such that, say, a 2000 man Tercio can deploy 4x 250 man units of skirmishers, but no more? That half the unit needs to stay as the parent?

 

[trauth116]

Skirmishers, however, can melee attack -although they would have some negative modifiers (iirc).

Tercio as a weapon type came in an update after the title was published, and therefore did not receive the same standard of testing -so it will be interesting to see what you come up with.